I have proved Jesus was God in this and challenge any to scripturally disprove me.

Nameless.In.Grace

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How about the verse where Jesus says he is going to "MY GOD and your God", does that say something to you?

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You already know my stance, so my answer would be canned to you. But I'm curious about your take on a couple of passages.

May I throw you a couple curve balls to get your take?


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Ben Masada

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the-holy-trinity.jpg


“I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”

There's no way to explain this other than the Trinity.

Crucible, tell me something, who enjoys more credibility with you, Paul or HaShem aka Yahweh? I am asking this because Paul said Jesus was the son of God. (Acts 9:20) and, if you Exodus 4:22,23, Yahweh said, "Israel is My Son; let My Son go that he may serve Me." Can you answer me without Christian preconceived notions?
 

Jacob

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Paul is not the first person to refer to Jesus as the Son of God.

Paul is not the first person to refer to Jesus as the Son of God.

What you say above is the word of Paul in the NT. (Acts 9:20) How about the Word of Yahweh in Exodus 4:22,23? He says, "Israel is My son; so let My son go that he may serve Me." Which one you believe more?
I believe all of scripture, meaning the entire Bible. Begin with Torah and include the Prophets. We have the TaNaKh with the Writings. I know about the Law the Prophets and the Psalms. Then there is New Testament Scripture.

Only begotten Son.

John 3:16 NASB - "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:18 NASB - "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Hebrews 11:17 NASB - By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;

1 John 4:9 NASB - By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.

Son of God.

Matthew 4:3 NASB - And the tempter came and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."

Matthew 4:6 NASB - and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written,'HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU';and'ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP,SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.'"

Matthew 8:29 NASB - And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"

Matthew 26:63 NASB - But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God."

Matthew 27:40 NASB - and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross."

Matthew 27:43 NASB - "HE TRUSTS IN GOD; LET GOD RESCUE Him now, IF HE DELIGHTS IN HIM; for He said, 'I am the Son of God.'"

Matthew 27:54 NASB - Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"

Mark 1:1 NASB - The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Mark 3:11 NASB - Whenever the unclean spirits saw Him, they would fall down before Him and shout, "You are the Son of God!"

Mark 15:39 NASB - When the centurion, who was standing right in front of Him, saw the way He breathed His last, he said, "Truly this man was the Son of God!"

Luke 1:35 NASB - The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

Luke 4:3 NASB - And the devil said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread."

Luke 4:9 NASB - And he led Him to Jerusalem and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here;

Luke 4:41 NASB - Demons also were coming out of many, shouting, "You are the Son of God!" But rebuking them, He would not allow them to speak, because they knew Him to be the Christ.

Luke 22:70 NASB - And they all said, "Are You the Son of God, then?" And He said to them, "Yes, I am."

John 1:34 NASB - "I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God."

John 1:49 NASB - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

John 3:18 NASB - "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:25 NASB - "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

John 10:36 NASB - do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?

John 11:4 NASB - But when Jesus heard this, He said, "This sickness is not to end in death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it."

John 11:27 NASB - She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."

John 19:7 NASB - The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God."

John 20:31 NASB - but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Acts 8:37 NASB - And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

Acts 9:20 NASB - and immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying, "He is the Son of God."

Romans 1:4 NASB - who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,

2 Corinthians 1:19 NASB - For the Son of God, Christ Jesus, who was preached among you by us--by me and Silvanus and Timothy--was not yes and no, but is yes in Him.

Galatians 2:20 NASB - "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Ephesians 4:13 NASB - until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Hebrews 4:14 NASB - Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

Hebrews 6:6 NASB - and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Hebrews 7:3 NASB - Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

Hebrews 10:29 NASB - How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

1 John 3:8 NASB - the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 4:15 NASB - Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

1 John 5:5 NASB - Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:10 NASB - The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.

1 John 5:12 NASB - He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:13 NASB - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 John 5:20 NASB - And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Revelation 2:18 NASB - "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this:
 

keypurr

Well-known member
You already know my stance, so my answer would be canned to you. But I'm curious about your take on a couple of passages.

May I throw you a couple curve balls to get your take?


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary
Your always welcome to ask.
We need not agree to share our thoughts and be friends.

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Crucible

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Show me how this verse proves the Trinity.

Does it say the Dove is God, does it say the son is God? Nope. it doesn't

try again

I've never really been a fan of these sort of analogies, but for you I think it might serve well (or rather not, because you are a denialist).

But let's see God as a 'finger'. There are three joints, and each one dictates the next. The base is the Father, the middle is the Son, and the end is the Spirit.

Do with that what you will :idunno:
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Not much you can do with that friend.
I don't see God as a finger, but I get your point.
Is that the best ya got?

I do not deny that Christ is the son of God, and I do not deny his God that Sent him. What I deny is all the old doctrines that mislead folks away from truth. Our early church leaders were misled and moved away from the church founded by Christ.

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Crucible

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Not much you can do with that friend.
I don't see God as a finger, but I get your point.
Is that the best ya got?

I do not deny that Christ is the son of God, and I do not deny his God that Sent him. What I deny is all the old doctrines that mislead folks away from truth. Our early church leaders were misled and moved away from the church founded by Christ.

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The Catholic Church was misled by the very events which led up to their declaration of infallibility in 1054AD.
Whatever the 'Seat of Peter' may have been, it was gone by that time.

The Trinity is a universal doctrine; the differences between the East and West have to do with the 'Filioque', which is the notion that the Spirit descends from both the Father and Son- in Eastern theology, he only comes from the Father.

But nowhere will you ever find a denial of the Trinity, historically, other than Arius. And he no doubt was a 'contrarian'- a person against something particular simply because a majority agrees.
You can think the Scriptures agree with your notion of the Godhead, and there's nothing anyone can tell you otherwise, but you are simply wrong.
You're just going to have to be honest and objective, and just figure it out yourself :)
 

Nameless.In.Grace

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Not much you can do with that friend.
I don't see God as a finger, but I get your point.
Is that the best ya got?

I do not deny that Christ is the son of God, and I do not deny his God that Sent him. What I deny is all the old doctrines that mislead folks away from truth. Our early church leaders were misled and moved away from the church founded by Christ.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app

What do you make of Revelation 22:

12 “Look! I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me to repay each person according to what he has done.

13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates.

15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to attest these things to you for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright Morning Star.”


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Lazy afternoon

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16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to attest these things to you for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright Morning Star.”

Spoken after the resurrection.

Similar statements are made by Jesus only after His ministry began.

You have to find out how come, for then you will see.

When people want to make Jesus into the creator instead of seeing the union of the two (Father and Son) then they demonstrate that they do not yet know or accept the truth.

LA
 

keypurr

Well-known member
What do you make of Revelation 22:

12 “Look! I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me to repay each person according to what he has done.

13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates.

15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to attest these things to you for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright Morning Star.”


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First understand that I believe that the express image of the Father is the spirit son of God. I also believe that he is the first of all creation and was given the fullness of his creator, I also believe that he spoke through Jesus.

In the beginning there was the Father, then the spirit son. All things were created by the Father through his spirit son. The Father and Son are the we/us/our in Genesis. Christ, spirit son, had powers that put him in a very high place in heaven.

With that in mind, read again the verses about the morning star. You might want to think about the other morning stars that sang together in the book of Job.

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Nameless.In.Grace

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First understand that I believe that the express image of the Father is the spirit son of God. I also believe that he is the first of all creation and was given the fullness of his creator, I also believe that he spoke through Jesus.

In the beginning there was the Father, then the spirit son. All things were created by the Father through his spirit son. The Father and Son are the we/us/our in Genesis. Christ, spirit son, had powers that put him in a very high place in heaven.

With that in mind, read again the verses about the morning star. You might want to think about the other morning stars that sang together in the book of Job.

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There is indeed an important distinction that has to be made between the morning star and the Bright Morning Star. 😉

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Ben Masada

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I believe all of scripture, meaning the entire Bible. Begin with Torah and include the Prophets. We have the TaNaKh with the Writings. I know about the Law the Prophets and the Psalms. Then there is New Testament Scripture.

Well, my question remains about which Testament is telling the Truth; if the NT or the Tanach. You have quoted the NT stating that Jesus is the only begotten son of God and I quoted the Tanach stating that Israel is the Son of God. "Israel is My Son; so let My Son go that he may serve Me." (Exodus 4:22,23) If both are right, you must erase the word "only" in your quote because Jesus was not the only begotten son of God. Nu!
 
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