'new guy' LOL Crux. TBum and I used to sit in the same pew when TB came to Church of God Cleveland, Tennessee to troll.
How the Gospel Refutes Calvinism, All Religions
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
'new guy' LOL Crux. TBum and I used to sit in the same pew when TB came to Church of God Cleveland, Tennessee to troll.
beloved57
Well-known member
Ok then. Jesus said that Faith is a work of the law Matt 23:23
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Sonnet
New member
Respectfully, my challenge to you was:
Let's assume that you are correct in your interpretation of Matthew 23:23 - that faith is a work. Please exegete Romans 4:1-5, using your definition of faith, and see if you can maintain your position.
beloved57
Well-known member
That's your responsibility to exegete scripture you give.
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Sonnet
New member
I have exegeted it.
So, since you are refusing my challenge we may justifiably infer that you cannot maintain your position. If scripture does not contradict itself then it should be easy for you to do as asked.
Failed.
beloved57
Well-known member
Responsibility and voluntary choice are not the same thing as free will. We affirm that man is indeed responsible for the choices he makes, yet we deny that the Bible teaches that man has a free will since it is no where taught in the pages of Scripture. The Bible teaches, rather, that God ordains all things that come to pass (Eph 1:11) and it also teaches that man is culpable for his choices (Ezek 18:20, Matt 12:37, John 9:41).
Sonnet
New member
If faith through free choice is not a possibility, then why did Paul preach it? This is what Paul and the apostles preached (1 Cor. 15:3b-5):
"Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, he was buried, he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve."
v.11
"Whether, then, it was I or they (the apostles), this is what we preach and this what you believed."
Do you preach this? In Galatians 1 Paul warns about the preaching of different gospels. He even curses those who do so.
Why would Paul cite Deuteronomy 30:11-14 regarding faith?
"Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it."
Paul says that faith IS possible - that it is not out man's reach and up in heaven so that man has to ascend beyond his capability. You seem to be suggesting otherwise.
Yes, God is sovereign and we are responsible.
I believe that the predestination of Ephesians 1 is with regard to God's provision of Christ and the spiritual blessings that come for those in Him.
Sonnet
New member
Righteousness is not possible through human effort - through observing the law. Righteousness through faith is possible.
Romans 10:1-4
Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
If it is the case that righteousness through faith is, like righteousness through works of the law, beyond man's capability, then Paul would be guilty of gross disingenuity in v.4
Romans 10:1-4
Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
If it is the case that righteousness through faith is, like righteousness through works of the law, beyond man's capability, then Paul would be guilty of gross disingenuity in v.4
Epoisses
New member
Why does the bible command belief if it is impossible you ignorant fool!
Sonnet
New member
Paul, as outlined above, said otherwise.
If you are right then you will be forced to preached a different gospel than the one he and the apostles preached.
God knew the believers will believe. The believers must believe cause God knew or ordianed it. You're reading this with man made thoughts but that's all you can do anyway. You need to let the Bible say how it is, even though you don't believe it
Course he did. How else is he going to make you an unbeliever. This is evidence you didn't read the proof texts cause you don't understand. More proofs in your lies caught red handed and still available for others to see for themselves.
why is this thread in the religion forum?
God shouts a command is the same as God willed. Everything responds to every shout God makes. If God commands you to believe, you won't be able to refuse. You fight for the ability to refuse is proof of an unbeliever. Who knows God may command you to believe tommorow and that will change this post.
Who in the world would want to go against God begging for free will to refuse ????? The unregenerates of course.
God makes it possible through Jesus. Did you know Jesus died for his people? Has anyone told you about Jesus?
Epoisses
New member
Faith is a gift and I admit that but it is also a command. To focus on one to the exclusion of the other leads to extremism. Calvinists take grace to such an extreme that they have God ordaining people to hell. How can you not see that that is wrong?