ECT How is Paul's message different?

[turbosixx]

Look, loaded questions and half veiled points/arguments serve a purpose up to a point but this is starting to feel a little like a salesman forcing me to say no three times before he moves on. If you've got an argument to make, make it.

Sorry it looks loaded but I would rather me point you in the direction and then you read it for yourself. That way it's not my words but God's words.

I can't even tell what you might possibly be getting at.

This is my point. The claim is that the gospel given to Paul is different than the gospel given to the 12. I believe they are the same by looking at the evidence. I know immediately your mind will go to all the things you know that prove to you that they are different. If you willing to challenge your thinking, I believe the evidence will show they are the same but if I’m mistaken then maybe you can show me where I’ve gone off track.
I would like to start at the beginning and work forward. Paul’s letters are written to people who heard his gospel and were added to the body. He obviously didn’t give them the whole gospel but converted them with the basics/milk and then later in his letters gives them meat, 1 Cor. 2:1-2; 3:1-2. For time and shorter posts, I will try and hit the highlights and we can dig down if we need to.

Paul was given and sent to proclaim the gospel by Jesus. He traveled the world on three journeys proclaiming this gospel adding those who believed to the body. The first time we see him preaching is in Acts 9:20 saying Jesus was the son of God. In Acts 13 God gives us an entire sermon and later in Acts 14 it says 7 And there they preached the gospel, so I would suggest his sermon in Acts 13 is the gospel of grace. When we compare Paul’s sermon in Acts 13 with that of Peter’s in Acts 2, they are the same. My question is, if they’re the same message what do you see that makes them different?

 

[turbosixx]

lol, I think thats why scriptures like Galatians 2:9 KJV are so important they show exactly who the 12 were going to. In Acts 15 the issue is if the Gentiles should be circumcised and follow the law.

Now in Acts 10:14 KJV Peter says "no,I have never..." In Acts 11:2-3 KJV those of the circumcision contended with him about eating and going into their house. Then in Acts 11:12 KJV he recites that he is told to do this "nothing doubting" because he admits he doubted it. The issue of the meeting in Acts 15 is over whether the gentiles were to be circumcised and follow the law of Moses or not.

So again until Paul did they say no they aren't suppose to to the gentiles or did they preach the word to the Jews only, Acts 11:19 KJV ? Now after the door was opened, Acts 14:27 KJV the question came up about if the gentiles should be circumcised and follow the law. In post #1310 you ask about the "root" of this same issue about the difference does it bother you to find it in Paul?

I don't see a difference in Paul. Paul converted people to Christ just the same way Peter did. Peter's sermon in Acts 2 is the same sermon Paul preached in Acts 13. Later in Acts 14 it says Paul preached the gospel which would be what he preached in chapter 13. Can you point out how the two sermons are different?

 

[Right Divider]

Paul was given and sent to proclaim the gospel by Jesus.

Jesus had already sent His twelve apostles to all the world. If it's all the same message, no need for ONE new apostle.

He traveled the world on three journeys proclaiming this gospel adding those who believed to the body. The first time we see him preaching is in Acts 9:20 saying Jesus was the son of God. In Acts 13 God gives us an entire sermon and later in Acts 14 it says 7 And there they preached the gospel, so I would suggest his sermon in Acts 13 is the gospel of grace. When we compare Paul’s sermon in Acts 13 with that of Peter’s in Acts 2, they are the same. My question is, if they’re the same message what do you see that makes them different?

Talking to you is just like talking to deaf person. You don't hear.

The reason that Paul's sermon in Acts 13 sounds the same is because Paul AGREES and CONFIRMS all that came before. That does NOT mean that EVERYTHING that Paul preaches is IDENTICAL to what the twelve were preaching.

Jesus said that the twelve apostles will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel, but you don't believe Him.

Paul is the PATTERN for those that should HEREAFTER believe on him to life everlasting, but you don't believe that either.

Twelve apostles for the twelve tribes of Israel and one apostle for the one body. It's just that simple.

 

[glorydaz]

I don't see a difference in Paul. Paul converted people to Christ just the same way Peter did. Peter's sermon in Acts 2 is the same sermon Paul preached in Acts 13. Later in Acts 14 it says Paul preached the gospel which would be what he preached in chapter 13. Can you point out how the two sermons are different?

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 13:38-39 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

 

[musterion]

but if I’m mistaken then maybe you can show me where I’ve gone off track.

Lie. You've been shown exactly that for a few years now. Don't play dumb with Clete. That way lies pain.

 

[whitestone]

I don't see a difference in Paul. Paul converted people to Christ just the same way Peter did. Peter's sermon in Acts 2 is the same sermon Paul preached in Acts 13. Later in Acts 14 it says Paul preached the gospel which would be what he preached in chapter 13. Can you point out how the two sermons are different?

In Acts 21:21 KJV James(from Acts 15) brings up the issue of circumcision and following the law again. So they speak about it in Acts 15,then Paul does in Galatians 2:9 KJV and then again "how many years later?",,,and what is James saying?

 

[Interplanner]

In Acts 21:21 KJV James(from Acts 15) brings up the issue of circumcision and following the law again. So they speak about it in Acts 15,then Paul does in Galatians 2:9 KJV and then again "how many years later?",,,and what is James saying?

I don't know that they are 'preaching' circumcision but perhaps just trying to manage a really annoying situation with people in Judaism. Besides that there is Paul's own agenda of getting into just enough trouble to get to Rome, if you know what I mean.

 

[whitestone]

I don't know that they are 'preaching' circumcision but perhaps just trying to manage a really annoying situation with people in Judaism. Besides that there is Paul's own agenda of getting into just enough trouble to get to Rome, if you know what I mean.

lol, maybe Turbosixx knows we'll wait and see he said a few post back he didn't think so,,,

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If the saving Gospel is, itself, "the power of God unto salvation," leading to the salvation of any who believe it, then there can be no need for human priests under this dispensation of grace.

Are you so lost that you really think that the spiritual house to which Peter referred is Israel who has been temporarily set aside?

 

[Clete]

Sorry it looks loaded but I would rather me point you in the direction and then you read it for yourself. That way it's not my words but God's words.



This is my point. The claim is that the gospel given to Paul is different than the gospel given to the 12. I believe they are the same by looking at the evidence. I know immediately your mind will go to all the things you know that prove to you that they are different. If you willing to challenge your thinking, I believe the evidence will show they are the same but if I’m mistaken then maybe you can show me where I’ve gone off track.
I would like to start at the beginning and work forward. Paul’s letters are written to people who heard his gospel and were added to the body. He obviously didn’t give them the whole gospel but converted them with the basics/milk and then later in his letters gives them meat, 1 Cor. 2:1-2; 3:1-2. For time and shorter posts, I will try and hit the highlights and we can dig down if we need to.

Paul was given and sent to proclaim the gospel by Jesus. He traveled the world on three journeys proclaiming this gospel adding those who believed to the body. The first time we see him preaching is in Acts 9:20 saying Jesus was the son of God. In Acts 13 God gives us an entire sermon and later in Acts 14 it says 7 And there they preached the gospel, so I would suggest his sermon in Acts 13 is the gospel of grace. When we compare Paul’s sermon in Acts 13 with that of Peter’s in Acts 2, they are the same. My question is, if they’re the same message what do you see that makes them different?

They aren't the same but the form of argument is valid.

If you think that you are able to establish that what Paul and Peter preached is the same then I invite you to do so.

For now, I'll leave you with a question that in all the years I've been debating this issue, no one has offered a satisfactory answer too...

Why Paul? Where the need for the thirteenth Apostle?

If Jesus was going to start handing out Apostleships and delivering the gospel by direct divine revelation shortly after He finished His work at Calvary, then why bother with confusing the heck out of the Twelve for three years only to cut off the primary focus of their ministry and bring in someone from outside the group shortly after it all became clear to them?

I'm going to be gone the next couple of days. I'll look forward to seeing what you come up with when I get back (probably Thursday).

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Jerry Shugart]

1 Peter 2 KJV

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Sonny boy, let's look at the following words of Peter:

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded" (1 Pet.2:5-7).​

These words were written AFTER the nation of Israel had already been cast aside. So the words "spiritual house" cannot be referring to the nation of Israel because when those words were written the nation remained in unbelief.

Therefore, it is an easy thing to understand that the spiritual house of which the Lord Jesius is the chief cornerstone is the Body of Christ:

"...that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross...Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit" (Eph.2:13-22).​

If you continue to insist that the nation of Israel is the "spiritual house" of which Peter spoke despite the fact that when he wrote those words the nation remained in unbelief then you wouldn't know "spiritual" if it hit you right between the eyes.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The "spiritual house" that Peter is describing is those, like him, that are BELIEVING Israel and are going to receive the kingdom.

So the middle wall of partition was not broken down which stood between the believing Jews and the believing Gentiles and the believing Jews were not reconciled unto God in one Body, the Body of Christ?:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

You deny what Paul said there and instead proudly assert that those who received the Hebrew epistles remained Israel and the Jewish believers were not reconciled unto God in one Body, the Body of Christ.

You are delusional if you think that you are actually believing what Paul wrote at Ephesians 2:13-16.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If you think that you are able to establish that what Paul and Peter preached is the same then I invite you to do so.

Are the following words of Peter not the same gospel which Paul referred to as the preaching of the Cross?:

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).​

Besides that, the heart and soul of the gospel of grace is "redemption,"that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).

Can you not see that what Peter wrote here indeed the good news which Paul first preached?:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet. 1:18-19).​

Maybe you haven't yet gotten around to reading Peter's epistles?

 

[john w]

Sonny boy, let's look at the following words of Peter:

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded" (1 Pet.2:5-7).​

These words were written AFTER the nation of Israel had already been cast aside. So the words "spiritual house" cannot be referring to the nation of Israel because when those words were written the nation remained in unbelief.

Therefore, it is an easy thing to understand that the spiritual house of which the Lord Jesius is the chief cornerstone is the Body of Christ:

"...that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross...Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit" (Eph.2:13-22).​

If you continue to insist that the nation of Israel is the "spiritual house" of which Peter spoke despite the fact that when he wrote those words the nation remained in unbelief then you wouldn't know "spiritual" if it hit you right between the eyes.

"Let's not look," copy'npaster, as you think that "Let's look" is so "intelligent" sounding. What a loser you are-even you know it.

Sorry, wimpy old man, Wally Cox/Mr. Peepers look-alike, but which word(s) of my last few posts didn't you understand? What I post is not for your benefit, but for the babes/sheep, and intelligent, reasonable, mature(my emphasis) members of the boc, as you are too "long gone" into your Acts 2 blenderism, Ironside-ism, Ryrie-ism, Walvoord-ism, it all says the same thing," "Replacement Theology," bible correcting, "unteachable spirit," sower of discourse amongst the brethren, humanist ditch; Again-I post only for intelligent members of the boc, the sheep/babes, so that they will be not caught in your maze of cobwebs, neurons, ropes, strings, yarn, cotton candy....so that they will not end up like you,an anti-thinker,in a ditch, trying on another straight jacket.

Even slower-no need to reply, Jerry/"Jenny" S, as, again, I am not Forest Gump, and thus do not attempt to engage in persuasion, disputing, debating with bible correctors/mystics/agnostics, humanists like yourself,just like atheists, as that is like attempting to rearrange the proverbial deck chairs, on the SS Titanic.


Can you dig it? Rhetorical q, as the blender will feel compelled to post more slop, sophistry, and "it all says the same thing" jazz, and show me a thing or two.

 

[God's Truth]

Peter:

Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”


Paul:


Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus and Jerusalem, then to everyone in the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I declared that they should repent and turn to God ,performing deeds worthy of their repentance.


Paul teaches the same thing that Jesus and Peter taught:


Paul teaches the same thing that Jesus taught:

Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Romans 13:8
Be indebted to no one, except to one another in love, for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law.

Galatians 5:14
The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

James 2:8
If you really keep the royal law stated in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.

Love is the fulfillment of the law means you are obeying everything that Jesus taught.

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus cleans us and keeps us clean. The purification/ceremonial works no longer do and those works will cause you to fall from grace. You can't even do the works of the law anymore. There is no temple. There is no priest in the line of Aaron. There are no daily sacrifices of lambs. You need to see that or are you deaf and blind?

Galatians 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Hebrews 12:15 Be careful that no one falls short of the grace of God, so that no root of bitterness will spring up to cause trouble and defile many.

Galatians 5:9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough."

Matthew 16:6 "Be careful," Jesus said to them. "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees."


Did you see that?

Jesus spoke against the Pharisees; so why do people here go against me for preaching obedience to Christ and they go against me by calling me a Pharisee. J

 

[john w]

You deny what Paul said there ....You are delusional if you think that you are actually believing what Paul wrote at Ephesians 2:13-16.

Add that to his "Don't you believe Paul/God/the scriptures?....Maybe you haven't yet gotten around to reading Peter's epistles?...Have you not read the bible?..." repertoire of debate enders.

You do you realize, old man, that the TOL audience is laughing at you, when you employ that gimmick, sophistry?

Come on, Mr. Peepers-teach us another one of those debate clinchers, like:

There can be no doubt whatsoever....

Do be a dear...Please, teach us...Please?

You're a clown, like mess-hack, God'suntruth, and not many take you seriously on TOL. You're actually quite harmless.

 

[God's Truth]

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea,

which are in Christ Jesus:



Did you read that?

Paul wants us to be imitator's of who? The CHURCHES IN JUDEA.

The churches in Judea are Jews who became Christians, and even before Paul.

 

[God's Truth]

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea,

which are in Christ Jesus:

You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews

15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out.

They displease God and are hostile to everyone

16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved.

16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved.

16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved.

In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

 

[God's Truth]

Same one and only Gospel.

Remedy your problem you teachers of falseness.

Believe the truth and repent of your sins.