How can God resurrect us if we do not have an immortal soul?
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iouae
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1Pe 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 3:22
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Lon, to me the above scripture is addressing "the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah".
These are disobedient demon spirits who precipitated the flood. One example of disobedience was procreating with humans.
Gen 6:2
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
The other part of their disobedience is that the wicked spirits motivated people to fill the earth with violence.
Gen 6:11
The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
God imprisoned those evil spirits who were blatantly disobedient in spirit prison, known as tartaros.
After Christ had accomplished his mission on earth, had died and risen from the grave, Christ went and preached to these imprisoned demon spirits. Why.
In the spirit realm, I believe there has been a constant rebelliousness against Christ's rule. Christ wanted to show these evil spirits, now that He had conquered sin and death, had been glorified and had received power from the Father - that these spirit's judgment day was coming. There was now nothing standing in the way of these evil, demonic spirits being judged. That is how I read 1 Peter 3.
If one wants to know what Christ preached to the demon spirits, I believe the gist of His sermon was Ps 82.
Psa 82:1
[[A Psalm of Asaph.]] God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods...
Psa 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Psa 82:7
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
The gist of Christ's sermon to demons was that they, like humans, do not have an immortal soul, and that the gods/demons "would die like men".
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 3:22
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Lon, to me the above scripture is addressing "the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah".
These are disobedient demon spirits who precipitated the flood. One example of disobedience was procreating with humans.
Gen 6:2
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
The other part of their disobedience is that the wicked spirits motivated people to fill the earth with violence.
Gen 6:11
The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
God imprisoned those evil spirits who were blatantly disobedient in spirit prison, known as tartaros.
After Christ had accomplished his mission on earth, had died and risen from the grave, Christ went and preached to these imprisoned demon spirits. Why.
In the spirit realm, I believe there has been a constant rebelliousness against Christ's rule. Christ wanted to show these evil spirits, now that He had conquered sin and death, had been glorified and had received power from the Father - that these spirit's judgment day was coming. There was now nothing standing in the way of these evil, demonic spirits being judged. That is how I read 1 Peter 3.
If one wants to know what Christ preached to the demon spirits, I believe the gist of His sermon was Ps 82.
Psa 82:1
[[A Psalm of Asaph.]] God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods...
Psa 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Psa 82:7
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
The gist of Christ's sermon to demons was that they, like humans, do not have an immortal soul, and that the gods/demons "would die like men".
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iouae
Well-known member
Lon, I think you need to examine the question of whether 1Pet 3:19-20 sounds more like the spirits of dead OT saints, or more like pre-flood demon spirits locked now in tartatos. Why would folks like Abraham, Noah etc be referred to as "which sometime were disobedient"? It makes sense in a description of fallen angels, but makes no sense to me in a description of "friends of Jesus" since all Jesus friends "sometime were disobedient", but it is not their obedience, disobedience which saves them, but rather Jesus whose righteousness is given/imputed to them.
"...By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
But you having explained where you get your doctrine from, I see how it makes sense to you, so we are not arguing at cross purposes.
You once asked me if I consider any of this salvific. No I don't. To me the only salvific thing is one box to tick...
Friend of Jesus Yes/No
If both you and Jesus tick that box, no belief or behaviour on our part matters.
As an example, the thief on the cross befriended Jesus, ticked that box with no beliefs and no behaviour, yet Christ promised the thief THAT DAY that SOME DAY the thief would be with Him in paradise. Why? Because the thief fulfilled the only requirement, Friend of Jesus, admit one.
iouae
Well-known member
Clefty, I have been meaning to ask you about this. I agree with all you wrote above, except that second last word "physical".
I believe that when I rise to meet Jesus in the air, or if I die first, I will be raised in a spirit body, not a physical one. The bits highlighted in 1 Cor 15 below I believe say likewise. Would you mind telling me why you believe it is a physical body resurrection. Like you I believe in soul sleep. Like you I believe we have to eat of the Tree of Life forever. Like you I believe that immortality is contingent on forever eating of the Tree (we don't have inherent eternal life - EVER). Like you (I think) I believe spirits can die. So why would God not give us a spirit body as Paul seems to be implying we get in the passage below?
1Co 15:36
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39
All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:48
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
oh so now Abraham DOES teach people WOULD believe those risen from the dead?
The disciples knew they were looking at a ghost is why they were afraid...and they knew they were looking at a spirit...is why Luke has Him soothing them confirming He was He and in flesh and blood...again maybe Samuel should have confirmed it was he...but Saul already believed in spirits and ghosts SAID to be conjured up by witches for profit and gain...despite being rejected communication from Yah...as if Samuel would work behind His back...
The short answer is that we are to eat of the tree of life...spirits dont eat...
Just like in the garden of Eden man was NOT immortal but physical in a physical body made of mud...just like when He asked the terrified disciples for food and ate fish and honeycomb to prove He was also physical not just a spirit...
Putting on immortality is putting on that wedding gown to eat at the banquet...putting on that heavenly building...putting on the restored access to tree of life...that glorified body is a security clearance past the cherubim guarding the way to the tree of life...
Exactly why there is no hell or bosomville actually...they cant survive on their own...they can NOT eat...even if there was a tree of life amongst the flames...
spirits come from Him the ONLY IMMORTAL ONE...return to Him Who loans it and dust is destroyed and disobedient souls are annihilated at the end
By our birth into this present physical body is a by product given to eve to produce children...we through her and her gift of Grace have been saved from annihilation of nothingness...born and brought into Worship and Service to Him...HalleluYah and grateful of that salvation from nothingness we of course wish to be reborn into the Spirit and into slavery unto Him His way thus saved from annihilation again...
We were never created immortal but always dependent on Him His allowing us access to the tree of Life He put for the obedient to eat...chew swallow digest...in physical bodies...
I bet it tastes better than fish and honeycomb...
iouae
Well-known member
I read your first two paragraphs. You say spirits don't eat in paragraph 1, then in paragraph 2 you give an example of someone with a spirit body eating. I am genuinely confused by that.
And spirits do eat.
Psa 78:25
Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.
Manna is described as angels food.
Two other scriptures for your consideration.
1Jo 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Why do I feel we need to be like Jesus?
Rev 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.
I feel that Jesus will go to places where a physical body cannot go, e.g. to heaven, other planets, dematerialise on one side of earth and instantly appear on another side of earth. To follow Him, we will need to be composed of similar material.
And another thing...
2Pe 3:12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
This is describing the day when Satan is finally burnt up, the whole world is cauterised by fire, the very soil and earth is going to get so hot it melts into a type of glass before New Jerusalem comes down from heaven. How would a physical body survive this?
I agree totally with this, but feel that anything one can do in a physical body, one can do, and more in a spirit body, including eat. Why would God withhold the best from us?
Oh, and if for a little while we are lower than the angels (Heb 2:7-9), surely when we are over and judging angels, we will be composed of as good or better bodies than them, which is spirit.
Thanks.
Luke 24:37-39 KJV
(37) But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
(38) And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
(39) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
See? Yahushua had the common courtesy to introduce Himself properly and confirm it was Him and there was NO need to be afraid...poor disciples thinking they, rather KNOWING their lying eyes, were seeing a spooky spirit...
The spirit behind the apparition of Samuel was smart to be rude and not insist on confirming to poor frightened Saul...oh yeah there was no need to confirm it as Saul KNEW, what the lying witch described, was Samuel...
Just like Peter knew it wasn’t actually the donkey speaking but the Lord had opened its mouth...Peter was just a good story teller...
Just like Moses knew it wasn’t actually the serpent that spoke but a diabolical adversary of Yah using it to seduce Eve...
What grace and mercy Yahushua showed his terrified followers locked away for fear of the Jews...to come and confirm it was not a spirit but Him really...
iouae
Well-known member
Hi Sam75299 welcome to TOL.
Three posts like this and no thanks yet
Hang in there, I am sure a thank is coming your way soon.
THANK YOU BroHi Sam75299 welcome to TOL.
Three posts like this and no thanks yet
Hang in there, I am sure a thank is coming your way soon.
I am barely able to figure this app, i might have missed them
Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk
you mean our risen Lord and Savior in His new body that could go through locked doors and appear to eat and be touched?
be Comforted pray He lead you...case in point the Word became flesh...so from the start there is something different about this baby...born of a Virgin...is a clue...the Father being?...so He grows up and does miracles...walks on water too...escapes crowds trying to kill Him...and then allows Himself to be...
This is played out in Spirit of the Law vs. Letter of the Law too...as if it can’t be both...
Why not the best of both? So we have Him in His new glorified body to eat and poked by doubters...after having passed through locked doors (Calvin thought he used a ladder to climb in through a window...silly Calvin)
He also passed through the tombstone as it was rolled into place when the disciples arrived...the angel rolled it back to reveal the tomb was EMPTY...He was risen the day before...but let’s focus...
So this is the same Yahushua they saw go up and were told was going to come down...just as they saw it...
Spirits eating is not the traditional understanding of spirits...
Angel food cake is well you get where I am going...food from above of course would be named angel’s food man is creative like that...naming and creating constructs and beliefs etc.... but angels are limited...delayed even ask Daniel...
HalleluYah when we are resurrected and clothed in our heavenly buildings we will indeed be like Him...His image as we were intended to be in Eden...restored to Adam prior the fall...
we were created in His image which means to DO AS HE DOES AND BE AS HE IS...we were even given His Spirit to live and to do JUST so...to live eternally...eating of course from the tree of life...removed from it we begin to die...much faster after flooding...lol
yes a catagory in Heaven that lived on earth a much purer cleaner life while in their tabernacles of flesh...
He did that prior to His death...walked on water etc brought back life produced coins in fish multiplied bread...that SPIRIT within His tabernacle of flesh was RAW...
After His death He kept at it...went from Emmaus back to Jerusalem in NO TIME...through tombstones and doors...and yet ate and was tickled by doubters...
ok hold up...Adam was not created to shadow Him where ever He went doing whatever He did...but Adam was created to be a steward of the garden and to produce and multiply fruitfully and name stuff...etc...He was physical and pure the Spirit in him RAW too...why he even lived to 900 + years even after not eating of the tree...and his sons did too...
Adam was of dust material physical...could hug kiss could work and rest...hint hint
it can’t...physical bodies left here on earth will be consumed and annihilated with sin its death and hades in the consuming fire of “hell” and once all this “sin stained” physical world is burnt up the NEW replaces it...and it back to Eden...physical bodies eating working and enjoying...the tree of life to be eaten from...
What is sin? Not material at all the goat felt nothing when on its head all the sins of israel was placed...sin is an attitude...how does one burn that up? LOL death too is not physical but cessation...rest...changed energy in time...satan physical sure...Light but again understood as burnt up...forever...not burning
you place the emphasis on the wrong sylAble...ha...glorified bodies are perfect with out defect...and restored access to that which makes them immortal...GRACE provides that now eternally...nothing is held back...our heavenly bodies are animated again by HIS SPIRIT...with our souls...in another gifted body of dust...just like Adam was gifted his
yup on a detour of sin here we are...
Yes HalleluYah...angel NEVER will know what we know being mortals and suffering sin its death and seperation from each other and Him our Master Creator...NEVER will Angels be able to judge the good and evil we KNOW experienced felt and lived...NEVER will they KNOW the thrill of a babies first skill touch smell...or the terror of a master’s whip or enemie’s hate...probably will NEVER enjoy our humor...LOL
Poor guys...but restored again to what we were supposed to have been...on earth it will FINALLY be as it is in heaven...His will being done
Now FINALLY all creation will know BECAUSE OF WHAT WE KNOW...that He indeed is not only God but a GOOD GOD...
Our character witness has evidence proof and our testimony and witness for all He did for US was in His NAME...
HalleluYah...and forever ALL will worship and marvel at His GRACE AND MERCY AND JUSTICE for what was done for us...because of us...we revealed His mercy His grace His justice...our fall and restoration validates HIM as WORTHY OF PRAISE
We were made physical...physical blood was spilt to save us...and then His physical blood was spilt to save us...to restore us to knew physical bodies...heavenly buildings to live and give physical praise and actual true free will worship for what we learned in the fallen material world to apply and maintain in the restored material world of our New Heaven and New Earth...when New Moon and New Moon Sabbath to Sabbath ALL flesh will praise...
flesh is breathing His NAME already...do it intentionally
iouae
Well-known member
THANK YOU Bro
I am barely able to figure this app, i might have missed them
Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk
You have been thanked twice in eight posts which you seem to have posted in quick succession - so someone must like what you are saying
You are on your own with the app, or look for the nearest teenager and ask him/her.
I got it now i guess.You have been thanked twice in eight posts which you seem to have posted in quick succession - so someone must like what you are saying
You are on your own with the app, or look for the nearest teenager and ask him/her.
Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk
iouae
Well-known member
Clefty, I was reading this and thought of the witch at Endor.
Act 16:16
And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
Act 16:17
The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
Act 16:18
And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
Look at how spot on accurate this demon spirit was in what it said, just like the demon spirit who impersonated "Samuel" through the mouth of the diviner/soothsaying woman at Endor.
Thus, if one wanted to argue that spirits always lie, we have two cases in point where they tell the exact truth. A third case was Satan telling Eve "You shall be as gods knowing good and evil". The trouble is you don't want to be as the demon gods knowing/experiencing evil whereas up to then Eve had only known good.
Although diviners may tell the truth, the end result of their divination is going to be bad.
Look at Eve. Look at Israel when it followed Balaam's advice. Did not end too well for Saul.
Having a demon-possessed woman following one around and affirming what one says means that you are now linked in the populaces mind as being of one and the same spirit, saying one and the same thing. That, I believe, is why Paul threw it out - and obviously to have mercy on the possessed woman.
And the lie the Endor spirit told (along with truth) was that it was Samuel.
The lie Satan told Eve (along with the truth) was that she would not surely die.
And the lie the Acts 16 soothsayer spirit told (along with the truth) was "which shew unto us the way of salvation". The spirit was saying "us" inclusive, perhaps hoping there was salvation for evil spirits - which there is not.
Act 16:16
And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
Act 16:17
The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
Act 16:18
And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
Look at how spot on accurate this demon spirit was in what it said, just like the demon spirit who impersonated "Samuel" through the mouth of the diviner/soothsaying woman at Endor.
Thus, if one wanted to argue that spirits always lie, we have two cases in point where they tell the exact truth. A third case was Satan telling Eve "You shall be as gods knowing good and evil". The trouble is you don't want to be as the demon gods knowing/experiencing evil whereas up to then Eve had only known good.
Although diviners may tell the truth, the end result of their divination is going to be bad.
Look at Eve. Look at Israel when it followed Balaam's advice. Did not end too well for Saul.
Having a demon-possessed woman following one around and affirming what one says means that you are now linked in the populaces mind as being of one and the same spirit, saying one and the same thing. That, I believe, is why Paul threw it out - and obviously to have mercy on the possessed woman.
And the lie the Endor spirit told (along with truth) was that it was Samuel.
The lie Satan told Eve (along with the truth) was that she would not surely die.
And the lie the Acts 16 soothsayer spirit told (along with the truth) was "which shew unto us the way of salvation". The spirit was saying "us" inclusive, perhaps hoping there was salvation for evil spirits - which there is not.
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iouae
Well-known member
I take it you don't believe in God by saying we are on our own.
So what brought you to THEOLOGY online?
iouae
Well-known member
I just like debating and knowing people's views.
Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk
Well you have come to the right place. We have debates and views
way 2 go
Well-known member
Jesus said:
Luk 16:31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
Joh 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,
Joh 5:40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
Conjecture.