Hell

[JudgeRightly]

Not when it fits. Your asinine ignorance and judgemental attitude towards homeless people underlined that.

Is it wrong to judge, Arthur? Yes or no.

No, you don't, otherwise you would have compassion about you.

Sure I do. :noid:

You don't. Pompous

You would know... :mock:

judgement in spades

Is it wrong to judge, Arthur? Yes or no.

but compassion, empathy? Nope.

This coming from someone who is trying to be nicer than God... :think:

No, otherwise you wouldn't be asking such a self serving question to begin with.

Me: "Answer my question, and show how my question is in error."

Arthur: "No."

Then go away, because you're clearly not interested in having an honest discussion.

You wouldn't be focussed on how your own little piece of "paradise" could be ruined by other fallible people, just like you.

I'm not concerned about that, because it won't happen.

I'm asking YOU about YOUR position that God will allow those who reject Him into heaven. It's not my position that I'm questioning, it's YOURS.

Arthur, would it be loving for God to force those who love Him to live with those who reject Him?

Oh no, you meant that silly little soundbite, don't get all coy because you were called in it. You had ample chance to address that gaffe and you couldn't.

I have no idea what you're talking about at this point, then.

Oh, you're concerned alright, that a "heathen" might destroy your paradise...:shocked:

Straw man. Not my position.

Also non sequitur.

I asked:

You don't care at all otherwise you might get around to questioning the crap you so glibly lap up.

If I didn't care at all, I wouldn't be having this discussion with you.

As it were...

Note that I wouldn't wish the likes on you that you would for others.

And you think I do?

The reality is that you're a fundamentalist

That much is true.

who can't at this moment think for himself.

Because you totally know what I am capable of. :mock:

What "hell" would that be? Your doctrinal one of eternal suffering? Turn or Burn?

How about the one described in Scripture:

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” - John 3:14-21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John3:14-21&version=NKJV

And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:12-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation20:12-15&version=NKJV

:think:

And you call ME immature. :mock:

Stop being a hypocrite, Arty.

A loving person would want those estranged to come back into the fold,

And you think I don't?

even if that took time.

How much time would that be, Arty? a lifetime (about 80 years)? two? a hundred?

A million years? ten million? more?

At what point should God say, "that's enough, you've had your chance"?

They certainly wouldn't want people to be locked out forever.

So what about those who never repent?

You should really stop doing that...

-----------------

Hypocrite.

No, I call you unloving because you care more about your own place in "heaven" being "ruined" by those who would apparently usurp it if let in.

Straw man.

My position is that those who reject Him if the WERE allowed into heaven would in fact turn heaven into hell, so God, in order to avoid harming His own, separates those who reject Him from those who love Him, as the mother and father have to send away their son to prevent him from molesting his sister anymore.

You trying to "correct" anyone's beliefs is like an architect trying to lecture an astrophysicist. You're just an unthinking fundamentalist, bound to doctrine and a clanging cymbal.

:blabla:

Hopefully that'll change with some more years on the clock.

I would rather listen to what scripture says than what some nicer-than-God "Christian" says.

 

[JudgeRightly]

right...the punctuation makes it hard to understand that Luke wrote Stephen went to sleep and NOT to Abraham’s bosom...or heaven but fell ASLEEP...



just that those that love Him are over in one area around the tree of life...and those that reject Him are GONE PERISHED no living together no living with...



and what are those resident in hell?



lasting forever EXACTLY depending on the tree of LIFE...if NOT BEING KICKED OUT OF THE GARDEN MEANT THEY WOULD LIVE FOREVER ANYWAY...


NO MAN was NEVER IMMORTAL nor will be ONLY ONE IS IMMORTAL and in order to live forever necessitated access to the tree of life if NOT then being kicked out of the garden would be no big deal...

Yet a charibum with a “LAZER RAYGUN LIGHT SABER” guarded the way to the tree of LIFE...pretty specific yes?


And cuz if they had access to the tree of life then they could rebel for ever too...

So even the evil have body soul and spirit? Well they are rewarded then? transformed in a twinkling of the eye too?...but the fires don’t burn the flesh or is the flesh replenished? After being consumed?

So back to the rich man...one drop of water REALLY provides relief on his tongue?

Do flames not make a noise, people tormented with real fire on real flesh dont scream and shout...but somehow this rich man can hear above the roar of the fire and screams of tormented as Abraham he sees a distance FAR OFF merely speaks to him...not even shouts or what...

Oh and HOW MANY CAN FIT ON ABRAHAMS BOSOM? Do they time share line up or how does that work as a physical reality...

You dont believe anyone will perish but will continue to exist walk about see others walk about some more...maybe sit... or lay down or whatever...but they are alive...do they eat anything? oh tormented yes sure but...

I guess Yah needs them to be a freak show to keep it real right? Every 10000000000000000000000000000 years or so they will be observed as a reminder as why things are the way they are...aint love grand?

Not one iota of what you said above made any sense at all.

Slow down and think before typing out your thoughts.

What is this?

Not addressed to you.

 

[clefty]

Not one iota of what you said above made any sense at all.

Slow down and think before typing out your thoughts.



Not addressed to you.

Ha ok...sorry a lot of distractions family and friend over here...

So what did you not understand? Luke writing that Stephen did not go to Abraham’s bosom but that he fell asleep?

Or that man was NEVER made Immortal and thus dependent on the tree of life to live...is why when he was banned from access to it....he died...

And yes the Creator can destroy body and soul...fear Him...you are NOT immortal...or impossible to kill because you were designed to live forever...

 

[Arthur Brain]

Is it wrong to judge, Arthur? Yes or no.

Nope, then again nobody said it was.

Sure I do. :noid:

Not that I've seen. lots of legalism and advocating laws that would turn the West into a religious state but empathy? Nope.

You would know... :mock:

Hardly.

Is it wrong to judge, Arthur? Yes or no.

See above.

This coming from someone who is trying to be nicer than God... :think:

I ain't trying to be any such thing and maybe if you learned to think outside of what Bob Enyart has to say you'd realize that.

Me: "Answer my question, and show how my question is in error."

Arthur: "No."

Then go away, because you're clearly not interested in having an honest discussion.

Like the above was an honest representation...

I'm not concerned about that, because it won't happen.

I'm asking YOU about YOUR position that God will allow those who reject Him into heaven. It's not my position that I'm questioning, it's YOURS.

Arthur, would it be loving for God to force those who love Him to live with those who reject Him?

Nobody actually said it would and it certainly isn't my position as I don't think "force" would even be part of the equation. Where do you get the notion that I think God "forces" people anywhere?

I have no idea what you're talking about at this point, then.

Then let me remind you then. You and RD made some asinine quip whereby I equated "love" with something akin to having a crush on someone. Totally bizarre and you were both called on it.

Straw man. Not my position.

Also non sequitur.

I asked:

How isn't it? You've stated that Heaven could be ruined if "non believers" or non Christians were allowed in, right?

If I didn't care at all, I wouldn't be having this discussion with you.

As it were...

What exactly is it that you're caring about?

And you think I do?

Sure.

That much is true.

Because you totally know what I am capable of. :mock:

Oh, I think you're capable and intelligent but that won't come to fruition until you can think outside of fundamentalism and Bob Enyart podcasts.

How about the one described in Scripture:

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” - John 3:14-21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John3:14-21&version=NKJV

And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:12-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation20:12-15&version=NKJV

:think:

How is that a "description"? You surely don't read that as literal?

And you call ME immature. :mock:

Stop being a hypocrite, Arty.

You can be and this is a case in point. Go look in a mirror.

And you think I don't?

Frankly, no else you wouldn't have a problem with everyone being reconciled, not forced, reconciled. As of now, you're like the prodigal son's brother who has his nose put out of joint when his dad is overjoyed to see his return and lays out a banquet.

How much time would that be, Arty? a lifetime (about 80 years)? two? a hundred?

A million years? ten million? more?

At what point should God say, "that's enough, you've had your chance"?

As long as, what does it matter to you?

So what about those who never repent?

Supposing there isn't?

Hypocrite.

:blabla:

Straw man.

My position is that those who reject Him if the WERE allowed into heaven would in fact turn heaven into hell, so God, in order to avoid harming His own, separates those who reject Him from those who love Him, as the mother and father have to send away their son to prevent him from molesting his sister anymore.

Your idea of "rejecting" God, presumably being a non believer in this life or someone with the wrong faith etc?

:blabla:

Wonderfully mature response...

I would rather listen to what scripture says than what some nicer-than-God "Christian" says.

Or a Bob Enyart podcast. That's just some silly label that doesn't even apply to anyone.

 

[woodeneye]

Nope, then again nobody said it was.



Not that I've seen. lots of legalism and advocating laws that would turn the West into a religious state but empathy? Nope.



Hardly.



See above.



I ain't trying to be any such thing and maybe if you learned to think outside of what Bob Enyart has to say you'd realize that.



Like the above was an honest representation...



Nobody actually said it would and it certainly isn't my position as I don't think "force" would even be part of the equation. Where do you get the notion that I think God "forces" people anywhere?



Then let me remind you then. You and RD made some asinine quip whereby I equated "love" with something akin to having a crush on someone. Totally bizarre and you were both called on it.



How isn't it? You've stated that Heaven could be ruined if "non believers" or non Christians were allowed in, right?



What exactly is it that you're caring about?



Sure.



Oh, I think you're capable and intelligent but that won't come to fruition until you can think outside of fundamentalism and Bob Enyart podcasts.



How is that a "description"? You surely don't read that as literal?



You can be and this is a case in point. Go look in a mirror.



Frankly, no else you wouldn't have a problem with everyone being reconciled, not forced, reconciled. As of now, you're like the prodigal son's brother who has his nose put out of joint when his dad is overjoyed to see his return and lays out a banquet.



As long as, what does it matter to you?



Supposing there isn't?



:blabla:






Your idea of "rejecting" God, presumably being a non believer in this life or someone with the wrong faith etc?



Wonderfully mature response...





Or a Bob Enyart podcast. That's just some silly label that doesn't even apply to anyone.

What seems to be missing here, is the fact that God is selective about who He chooses to worship Him. No one who doesn't belong in heaven will be there. Period.

Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

 

[Arthur Brain]

What seems to be missing here, is the fact that God is selective about who He chooses to worship Him. No one who doesn't belong in heaven will be there. Period.

Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

What does that mean exactly? Are you a Calvinist?

 

[Arthur Brain]

My hopes are tempered by reality, which you seem to reject.

I would LOVE IT if all came to be in a relationship with their creator.

But God says that the majority are wicked, and are on their way to destruction.



Again I ask, is it selfish and unloving to preach to those who are on their way to hell that they are on their way to hell?



Considering you won't answer my question with a straight answer on this subject, I'm not sure how you arrive at that conclusion.

Maybe you could answer it with a straight answer, and not try to be a smart alec about it:

Would it be loving for God to force those who love Him to live with those who rejected Him while on earth?



:blabla:

-----------------

God does not want anyone to perish.

And yet, He recognizes that most will.

You would call God unloving because He will not allow someone who rejects Him to be in His presence for all eternity. This is what Scripture says.

If there had been any other way for God to save those who reject Him, He would have taken that route, instead of sending His only Son to die for them.

I do not want anyone to perish.

Yet, I recognize that God says that most will.

You call me unloving because I teach that God will not allow someone who rejects Him to be in His presence for all eternity. I'm simply trying to explain to you what Scripture says.

If Scripture had said that there was any other way, then it would have said that God took that option, rather than sending Christ to die on the Cross.

----

Arthur, if I were unloving, I wouldn't give two shakes of a dead cat what people believed.

As it were, though, I am "truly loving", because I teach what Scripture says, the truth.

Rejecting Scripture because you think it's unfair and unloving for God to send away those who reject Him is not a good position to take.

It's because I care about you and those who reject God that I am trying to correct your beliefs.

Um, let's get one thing straight here as I addressed you in full already as regards to the subject earlier on. You "teach" according to a narrow belief system and you're not really trying to "correct" anyone but insist that anyone who has a different view just fall into the same narrow one as your own. Rejecting "doctrine" is not the same as rejecting scripture. Otherwise you tell me, can God accomplish all that He wills taking man's fallibility into account?

 

[ok doser]

Maybe I can get a straight answer this time:
[MENTION=10403]Arthur Brain[/MENTION], Is it loving to those who love God for God to force them to live with those who reject Him?

OR

Is God "a pompous, self righteous, judgemental and ignorant jerk" who should allow everyone into heaven regardless of what choices they made while here on this earth?

didja ever get a straight answer from the silly little fool?

 

[JudgeRightly]

didja ever get a straight answer from the silly little fool?

Nope.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Nope.

Sure you were: Post #104.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Sure you were: Post #104.

Post #104 is not an answer to post #81.

You never answered the question.

You merely dodged it, redirected the conversation.

So here it is again, perhaps you can give a straight answer this time, and I'll even make it easier for you by making it multiple choice:

Is God:
A) loving because He knows that if He forces those who reject Him to live with Him forever they will harm those who love Him, and will only grow in their hatred of Him for imprisoning and forcing them to live with Him and other believers, and therefore must separate them so that they cannot harm His own?
B) "a pompous, self righteous, judgemental and ignorant jerk" who should allow everyone into heaven regardless of what choices they made while here on this earth?
C) Other (Please explain.): ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

[Arthur Brain]

Post #104 is not an answer to post #81.

You never answered the question.

You merely dodged it, redirected the conversation.

So here it is again, perhaps you can give a straight answer this time, and I'll even make it easier for you by making it multiple choice:

Is God:
A) loving because He knows that if He forces those who reject Him to live with Him forever they will harm those who love Him, and will only grow in their hatred of Him for imprisoning and forcing them to live with Him and other believers, and therefore must separate them so that they cannot harm His own?
B) "a pompous, self righteous, judgemental and ignorant jerk" who should allow everyone into heaven regardless of what choices they made while here on this earth?
C) Other (Please explain.): ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The "other" was explained fully enough and if you don't get it then you're the one fitting your own option B. Nobody, or at least I certainly wasn't arguing that people are forced into Heaven against their will where they'd supposedly want to harm the likes of you. You're the one with this bizarre hang up with force and being "harmed" by folk who don't happen to be believers in this life.

 

[ok doser]

The "other" was explained fully enough...

so cut and paste it

... folk who don't happen to be believers in this life.

aka non-Christians

aka the damned

 

[clefty]

Not one iota of what you said above made any sense at all.

Slow down and think before typing out your thoughts.



Not addressed to you.

Hey still waiting for an answer...

So what did you not understand? Luke writing that Stephen did not go to Abraham’s bosom but that he fell asleep?

Or that man was NEVER made Immortal and thus dependent on the tree of life to live...is why when he was banned from access to it....he died...

And yes the Creator can destroy body and soul...fear Him...you are NOT immortal...or impossible to kill because you were designed to live forever...

 

[Aimiel]

I have yet to see anyone ever refute the fact that Scripture clearly describes eternal conscious torment:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

It's clear from just this verse alone that there will ALWAYS be smoke ascending from the torment and they will be conscious (no rest). QED

 

[clefty]

I have yet to see anyone ever refute the fact that Scripture clearly describes eternal conscious torment:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

It's clear from just this verse alone that there will ALWAYS be smoke ascending from the torment and they will be conscious (no rest). QED

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...h/will-the-torment-of-the-wicked-last-forever

Good start there...

 

[clefty]

I have yet to see anyone ever refute the fact that Scripture clearly describes eternal conscious torment:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

It's clear from just this verse alone that there will ALWAYS be smoke ascending from the torment and they will be conscious (no rest). QED

Another one here

http://www.hellhadesafterlife.com/revelation-14

Here’s one you can just watch not have to read...

https://youtu.be/42gVKzxmzIU

There’s this thing called google...try it...

 

[clefty]

I have yet to see anyone ever refute the fact that Scripture clearly describes eternal conscious torment:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

It's clear from just this verse alone that there will ALWAYS be smoke ascending from the torment and they will be conscious (no rest). QED

Yup another...

http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/special1.htm

So I guess ya gotta want to look for refutation and not just stick your head in the sand...

Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning as per Jude 7?

Is that poor slave with a hole in his ear IMMORTAL and STILL serving? Ex 21:5-6

How about Samuel? 1 Sam 1:22 Still abiding at the temple or now on Abraham’s very very crowded bosom?
Or is he asleep like poor stoned Stephen? Acts 7:60

Oh BTW Stephen was killed by rocks thrown at him not asleep “cuz he b stoned” like whatever you kids stone yoursleves with...

 

[Aimiel]

I'm not looking for refutation, since God's Word is Truth. It has proven It's reliability, down through the millennia. If you find anything which proves that what It says isn't true, well you just let me know, okay? :thumb:

 

[clefty]

I'm not looking for refutation,

right you are not reasoning together nor testing all things...searching to see if things said are of scripture...got it

since God's Word is Truth.

and handling snakes and not getting bit is there too...soooo

It has proven It's reliability, down through the millennia.

yup and in all dispensations none believed eternal torment in flames as that was a construct built outside of the Bible and by later tradition...man’s tradition...

If you find anything which proves that what It says isn't true, well you just let me know, okay?

already did but you aren’t looking...too distracted looking at false images

:thumb:

even cute ones like that...