Finite being can never catch up to infinite Being.
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God's attitude towards science and progress
- Thread starter iouae
- Start date
Finite being can never catch up to infinite Being.
iouae
Well-known member
You're saying that God is only good because He says He is. If God had been something other than He is then that would have been good. If God had been the equivalent of Thor, that would have been good. If God had been the equivalent of Thanos, that too would have been good. If Jesus had sinned in the wilderness, God could have fixed that problem by declaring Satan worship to be good and all would have been well.
Makes one wonder what the point was have of having Jesus die on that cross! God could have just tweaked to the definition of good to mean someone the equivalent of John the Baptist or better and just fixed the whole situation by His fiat command. In fact, why wait four thousand years!? Why not just declare Adam to be the standard. Adam wasn't that terrible of a guy. Sure, he disobeyed God but its not like he was Hitler and who cares if he was anyway, if God says he's good then he's good, right? If God declared Nazism to be morally right then it would be, according to you, so where's the need for God to die on the cross?
The fact is, you're wrong. Morality is not a matter of God's fiat command. If it were, it would be meaningless to call God good, which the bible does repeatedly. To be morally good means to act in a manner consistent with Life. That which is proper to Life is the good; that which negates, opposes or destroys it is the evil.
That has been the case since long before anyone put it to words and even before anyone other than God, who is Life, existed. Furthermore, it is something that every human being is born understanding and can figure out if/when they forget it without the need of the Ten Commandments or the rest of the Jewish Law and are thus, as we are clearly taught in Romans 1, without excuse - as are you.
Clete
iouae
Well-known member
Yes
Yes
Yes, but luckily God is not Thor.
Yes, but luckily God is not Thanos.
Why would God do that?
Apparently that was God's will. It would not have been the way I or Thor or Thanos would have done it.
God knows that He alone is the standard for goodness, not John the Baptist. So no.
It's not God's will to lower His standard of goodness or to compromise. Only Himself is the standard. That's one of His traits, not to lower standards.
If you were God, and you were fine with that, then well and good.
But God does not change, including lowering His standard of "good" to be anything less than to be like Him.
If God liked Nazism, then we all would be wearing black boots and chanting "sieg heil".
But luckily God does not like that.
If you were wikipedia, then maybe.
I find no inconsistency with God doing what He wants, and willing us, His creation, to do what He wants. "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven". In heaven, what God wills goes.
"Meaning" is a philosophical concept as hard to define as "good", if God's will does not define "meaning".
You mean like survival of the fittest?
I see no consistent view of "good" from society to society. Even Jews under the OC would have a different view of "good" to Christians under the NC, and the Pharisees hated this new view of "good" so much, they killed the Messenger.
I keep the 10C to the best of my ability, because it IS the will of God in ten steps.
But there are 1050 commands in the NT so I don't stop at ten.
iouae
Well-known member
Since you have not come up with an alternative definition of "good", then I guess that is so.
iouae
Well-known member
Getting back to God's attitude towards science and progress...
Here is a prophecy for the Millennium....
Isa 65:20
There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed....
This verse is saying that if a person dies at 100 years old, they will still be considered a child.
And if they die at 100 years old, that will be considered so unnatural, that the "child" will be deemed to have been cursed to die so young.
Thus something will change at Christ's return to make humans live for as long as they lived before the flood.
This is the kind of science and progress which God is interested in.
And they will be enjoying themselves.
Isa 65:21
And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22
They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
This describes a rather low tech, rural lifestyle. But notice the phrase "for as the days of a tree are the days of my people". Some trees are potentially immortal, such as the pine tree Pinus lonngevia which can live for thousands of years. People are described as being like trees in their longevity. And because people live so long, they can enjoy the fruits of their labour e.g.. planting a vineyard and being around to enjoy the fruits.
God engineers through genes and biology. Even the animals are given a genetic makeover so that they are no longer dangerous, but like domestic animals. Domestic plants and animals only arrived in the geologic column at the same time as modern man. God is going to make more wild animals into domestic animals
Isa 65:25
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
Here is a prophecy for the Millennium....
Isa 65:20
There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed....
This verse is saying that if a person dies at 100 years old, they will still be considered a child.
And if they die at 100 years old, that will be considered so unnatural, that the "child" will be deemed to have been cursed to die so young.
Thus something will change at Christ's return to make humans live for as long as they lived before the flood.
This is the kind of science and progress which God is interested in.
And they will be enjoying themselves.
Isa 65:21
And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22
They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
This describes a rather low tech, rural lifestyle. But notice the phrase "for as the days of a tree are the days of my people". Some trees are potentially immortal, such as the pine tree Pinus lonngevia which can live for thousands of years. People are described as being like trees in their longevity. And because people live so long, they can enjoy the fruits of their labour e.g.. planting a vineyard and being around to enjoy the fruits.
God engineers through genes and biology. Even the animals are given a genetic makeover so that they are no longer dangerous, but like domestic animals. Domestic plants and animals only arrived in the geologic column at the same time as modern man. God is going to make more wild animals into domestic animals
Isa 65:25
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
Zeke
Well-known member
Well one must find them pearls in the field, but you won't in unbelief like the prodigals brother, he was in the same mindset as you, until his Father reminded him they were always his for the asking,Galatians 4:1, better get out of that thinking of self bondage its a lie fed to you by? (2Cor 6:16) and have council in God's kingdom you, Luke 17:20-21 Acts 17:24, 2Cor 6:2.
Completely wrong state of mind, letting the simulator dictate your reality, better sell all that wood hay and stumble.
The answer as to where God's goodness and how He commands only that which is good is this:
Perfect goodness is an essential part of God's character. It does not come from something outside of Him, nor is good "good" because He says it is so.
Things are "good" because they reflect God's nature.
You may wish to read this:
http://creation.mobi/what-is-good-answering-euthyphro-dilemma
Zeke
Well-known member
It's in the Bible Saul, are you another crybaby who runs to mama Sherm to get people band from threads in the vague religious section?, there is a traditional babble babe playpen section you can go play with images, just follow the signs, but don't stop there, just keep wondering.
[MENTION=12969]Sherman[/MENTION]
Zeke
Well-known member
Hebrews 6:1-4, @bible
iouae
Well-known member
You are just rephrasing what I said all along.
And the bit I underlined is where you contradict yourself. Things ARE good when He says they are so, since the Bible is a written reflection of His nature and His will.
I have been saying all along that whatever the Father wills, IS good.
God will only will things which come from His nature.
iouae
Well-known member
Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.
Because God's heart is good, whatever He speaks will be good.
Therefore, something is good, because He says it is so.
And if God's nature/heart is good, whatever He wills, will be good too.
JudgeRightly, you may want to disagree with me, but we are both on exactly the same page.
Because God's heart is good, whatever He speaks will be good.
Therefore, something is good, because He says it is so.
And if God's nature/heart is good, whatever He wills, will be good too.
JudgeRightly, you may want to disagree with me, but we are both on exactly the same page.
iouae
Well-known member
Why is it that God the Father is the only locomotive, and we are all passenger cars which hook onto Him?
Because you only have to take a look at all the demon spirits and Satan to see what happens to those who unhitch their wagons from God the Father. These miserable spirits were once upon a time "good" while they were doing His will. Then they left heaven and the Father, and slowly became selfish and miserable and all screwed up. I know for sure I would become exactly like them if I unhitched myself from God the Father, because I feel my nature pulling me that evil and miserable way.
We could hitch our wagon to Jesus Christ too, and be saved. But Jesus has hitched his wagon onto God the Father as His locomotive. So, all of us who would be good are hitched to the Father, through Jesus Christ. Christ Himself admits that He is sustained by the Father, just as He sustains us, in John 6:57.
Even the good angels in heaven remain good by staying within the will of the Father. They know that if they drifted away from Him, or left heaven for too long, they too would slowly corrupt, like the rest of the fallen angels.
Because you only have to take a look at all the demon spirits and Satan to see what happens to those who unhitch their wagons from God the Father. These miserable spirits were once upon a time "good" while they were doing His will. Then they left heaven and the Father, and slowly became selfish and miserable and all screwed up. I know for sure I would become exactly like them if I unhitched myself from God the Father, because I feel my nature pulling me that evil and miserable way.
We could hitch our wagon to Jesus Christ too, and be saved. But Jesus has hitched his wagon onto God the Father as His locomotive. So, all of us who would be good are hitched to the Father, through Jesus Christ. Christ Himself admits that He is sustained by the Father, just as He sustains us, in John 6:57.
Even the good angels in heaven remain good by staying within the will of the Father. They know that if they drifted away from Him, or left heaven for too long, they too would slowly corrupt, like the rest of the fallen angels.
Wonderfully stated.
iouae
Well-known member
Where does faith come in?
It takes faith to step into a self driving car.
It takes more faith to step into a self driving car when we don't know what the destination of that car is.
We feel out of control when our hands are not on the steering wheel.
No matter how bad a driver we are or how lost we get, we don't want to let go of that steering wheel.
We have no clue what we are signing up for by hitching our wagons to God the Locomotive. It takes faith to do so. We do so as an act of faith in God. We do so trusting that God knows what He is doing and where He is going. There is nothing in the Bible telling us what we will be doing for all eternity. And the alternative is to be stuck somewhere, all on our own, going nowhere.
And, contrary to the predestination crowd, even God the Father does not know exactly what we all will be doing 10000000000000000000000000000000000000 years from now. But the Father too has faith in His nature, that whatever it is we all will be doing, will be good. Ans as wagons on God's great wagon train, we too are allowed some input, so that we too will have some little say in what we will be doing that great distance into the future. Thus, the future is not totally decided. We will all make that future what it becomes, together. That is why we all need to have faith, to trust in, and to stay with the ride.
It takes faith to step into a self driving car.
It takes more faith to step into a self driving car when we don't know what the destination of that car is.
We feel out of control when our hands are not on the steering wheel.
No matter how bad a driver we are or how lost we get, we don't want to let go of that steering wheel.
We have no clue what we are signing up for by hitching our wagons to God the Locomotive. It takes faith to do so. We do so as an act of faith in God. We do so trusting that God knows what He is doing and where He is going. There is nothing in the Bible telling us what we will be doing for all eternity. And the alternative is to be stuck somewhere, all on our own, going nowhere.
And, contrary to the predestination crowd, even God the Father does not know exactly what we all will be doing 10000000000000000000000000000000000000 years from now. But the Father too has faith in His nature, that whatever it is we all will be doing, will be good. Ans as wagons on God's great wagon train, we too are allowed some input, so that we too will have some little say in what we will be doing that great distance into the future. Thus, the future is not totally decided. We will all make that future what it becomes, together. That is why we all need to have faith, to trust in, and to stay with the ride.
iouae
Well-known member
Clete wrote..."No, God's action does NOT define right and wrong (except as a sort of figure of speech). If what you said were correct, it would be meaningless to call God good. God would be amoral. God could, in your view, commit the murder that others on TOL have accused Him of and murder would become righteous by virtue of God's action. On the contrary, murder would not become good, God would have become evil."
This is quite laughable, Clete speaking of "good" and "evil" when Clete has consistently been unable to define good and evil apart from God's will. And God's will derives from God's nature.
And if God wants to commit whatever action He wants to commit, such as sending she bears to tear up children teasing His prophet Elisha, then I am fine with that, since it is obviously God's will, and therefore good.
2Ki 2:23
And he [Elisha] went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.
This is quite laughable, Clete speaking of "good" and "evil" when Clete has consistently been unable to define good and evil apart from God's will. And God's will derives from God's nature.
And if God wants to commit whatever action He wants to commit, such as sending she bears to tear up children teasing His prophet Elisha, then I am fine with that, since it is obviously God's will, and therefore good.
2Ki 2:23
And he [Elisha] went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.
iouae
Well-known member
Here is the reason why Clete, Steko, Tambora, JudgeRightly and their mutual admiration society are so wrong...
They should read the book of Job.
They are like Job's three friends, who spend their time defending God, saying God cannot be wrong for punishing Job. They insist, Job must deserve his punishment, or God would be punishing Job unfairly.
Yet Job throughout the Book of Job lists all the good he has done. Job has done more good than any other human, and bemoans the fact that he, the good one, is suffering while the evil folks are enjoying life. In essence, Job is saying he is being treated unfairly by God, and would like to tell God so, face to face.
Yet Job's friends keep on defending God. And in the end, God is fed up with His "defenders" and tells Job to pray for them.
The Book of Job has a lot of relevance to the discussion of what is "good".
Job thought that if he did his best to be "good", then that would ward off evil befalling him. This sounds fair. When God did not play ball with Job's philosophy, Job got a little whiney, especially as he was covered with sore boils.
Clete definitely thinks that God has to fit into his ideas of "good" just as Job thought he had God figured out.
But the Book of Job shows that God can do what the heck He likes, fair or unfair in Job, Clete, Steko, Tambora, or JudgeRightly's little philosophies. God is telling Job, and his friends, and all of us, that He will not be boxed in by our ideas regarding His righteousness.
God can do what the heck He likes, and if that involves Job suffering to prove his loyalty to God just so that God can go "I told you so" to Satan - then so be it.
Not Clete, Steko, Tambora, or JudgeRightly could ever come up with a formula which could ever define "good" or predict what God will do - because God does what He wills, and that will sometimes surprise Clete, Steko, Tambora, and JudgeRightly. They might not like God sending two she bears to tear up these "LITTLE children" for being mouthy. After all "sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never harm you". Surely no "good" God could ever do that? It turns out He can.
They should read the book of Job.
They are like Job's three friends, who spend their time defending God, saying God cannot be wrong for punishing Job. They insist, Job must deserve his punishment, or God would be punishing Job unfairly.
Yet Job throughout the Book of Job lists all the good he has done. Job has done more good than any other human, and bemoans the fact that he, the good one, is suffering while the evil folks are enjoying life. In essence, Job is saying he is being treated unfairly by God, and would like to tell God so, face to face.
Yet Job's friends keep on defending God. And in the end, God is fed up with His "defenders" and tells Job to pray for them.
The Book of Job has a lot of relevance to the discussion of what is "good".
Job thought that if he did his best to be "good", then that would ward off evil befalling him. This sounds fair. When God did not play ball with Job's philosophy, Job got a little whiney, especially as he was covered with sore boils.
Clete definitely thinks that God has to fit into his ideas of "good" just as Job thought he had God figured out.
But the Book of Job shows that God can do what the heck He likes, fair or unfair in Job, Clete, Steko, Tambora, or JudgeRightly's little philosophies. God is telling Job, and his friends, and all of us, that He will not be boxed in by our ideas regarding His righteousness.
God can do what the heck He likes, and if that involves Job suffering to prove his loyalty to God just so that God can go "I told you so" to Satan - then so be it.
Not Clete, Steko, Tambora, or JudgeRightly could ever come up with a formula which could ever define "good" or predict what God will do - because God does what He wills, and that will sometimes surprise Clete, Steko, Tambora, and JudgeRightly. They might not like God sending two she bears to tear up these "LITTLE children" for being mouthy. After all "sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never harm you". Surely no "good" God could ever do that? It turns out He can.
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