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God's attitude towards science and progress
- Thread starter iouae
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iouae
Well-known member
Suppose you liked my post and said "You are good" and my reply to you was "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God:"
Would you think I am confirming or denying that I am good?
And, you have a big fat hint by what follows "there is none good". Would you still think I am confirming or denying that I am good?
And on top of that if I then point you to the only one who is truly good, which is God, would you still think I am confirming or denying that I am good?
Like PJ, you cannot stop thinking that this is Christ speaking. If I said the exact same words, you would understand them clearly to be saying the exact opposite to what you affirm. You would know that I am refuting what you have just said about me being good.
glorydaz
Well-known member
You realize, don't you, that the disciples were instructed not to tell who He was...because His time had not yet come to make this known to all? He would heal and give the same admonition....tell no one.
Mark 8:29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ. 30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.
Luke 5:14, Luke 8:56, Luke 9:21
glorydaz
Well-known member
He's already said He was the Good Shepherd, which the Jews knew was God Almighty. He'd already claimed He had come down from heaven...that He was the bread of Life (all the I AM's) I AM the way. I AM the Truth. I AM the Life.
In fact, He was being sarcastic, just as you were. Which was the real irony here. :chuckle:
Any who had been paying attention would have known that He was God come in the flesh. It was slowly dawning on them all, which is why they crucified Him...because He claimed to be the great I AM.
glorydaz
Well-known member
His agony had everything to do with His being fully human.....all while knowing He could call down legions of angels in His capacity as God.
iouae
Well-known member
That is a good point in favour of my argument.
Why would Christ be trying to tell this young man that He (Christ) was good, and that only God is good, so that makes Christ God?
The logic would be this...
Only God is good.
Christ is good.
Therefore Christ is God.
But like you said, Christ did not try to revel that He was God.
So, could it be possible that Christ was pointing to the Father?
There are hundreds of places Christ points to the Father, away from himself.
"Our Father who art in heaven..." meaning pray to the Father, not me.
"Hallowed be THY name" meaning the Fathers
"Thy kingdom come", not "my kingdom come"
"Thy will be done on earth as it is done in heaven", not "my will be done". This here is the key to "goodness".
"My Father is greater than I."
"All power is given me..." the Greater gives power to the lesser.
iouae
Well-known member
I am sure Christ was a good carpenter too. Being good at maths does not make one "good". And this was a parable.
You cannot know what they know, or what is in their minds.
But where does He claim to be good? Earlier I explained the difference between sinless and good.
Yet, the irony is that Christ said that only one of the Godhead is "good". So you are using an unproven conclusion to prove your point. In fact you are going against what Christ said. You are saying Christ is good, and Christ is saying He isn't.
When you find out what the definition of "good" is, you will see why Christ never claimed to be "good" while being quite happy to be called God, or Shepherd, or the Bread of Life, or the I AM. Big difference between being all of these and being "good".
iouae
Well-known member
Having power is different to being "good".
His agony has everything to do with the definition of "good".
iouae
Well-known member
iouae
Well-known member
I was the OP, and I have not changed my stance. Can you tell me why I need to rethink anything I have said in this thread?
iouae
Well-known member
Let's perform a thought experiment with Luke 18:19.
Luk 18:19
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Let us just for a moment entertain the hypothesis that Christ is denying that He is good, and saying that only one Being is good, and that Being is God the Father.
We can always go back to believing that Christ IS good. A thought experiment means to entertain an idea we might not believe to be true. We might believe that because Christ is God, He has to be good. And wasn't he sinless? And did He not say that if you had seen Him you had seen the Father? Or He may be saying that speaking as a human he is not good, because humans can be tempted whereas God cannot. So we may have many doubts as to our hypothesis.
Let's try out our hypothesis viz. that Christ is not good, only the Father is.
How could this possibly be?
I previously stated that to do the will of God is "good" and to go against that will is "evil".
Both Jesus and the Father think and feel independently, and have independent wills.
We see this in the Garden of Gethsemane where Christ wills not to go through with the crucifixion, but the Father wills that he does.
Now I narrow the definition that to do the will of God THE FATHER is "good" and to go against that will is "evil".
Let's suppose Christ had refused to comply with the Father's will that He be crucified, then Christ would have been doing evil. Christ acknowledged this by saying "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done".
Here Christ is denying His will and affirming the Father's will as being the one that counts.
In fact Christ is pointing us to the definition of "good". Doing the Father's will is good.
There is never a time when doing the Father's will is wrong.
Christ came to reveal "goodness".
Heb 10:7
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:9
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God.
Christ came to set an example of doing the Father's will.
The Lord taught us to pray to the Father, not Himself.
Mat 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
The whole Lord's prayer is focused on the Father. Notice who's will is to be done, the Father's not Christ's.
Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Let's have a look at Jas 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
We know that Christ could be tempted, but why is it that the Father cannot be tempted?
The Father cannot be tempted to go against His own will, just like most people are not tempted to go against themselves. Especially as James explains how God is not double minded.
I remember my Mother once saying to me "You know, your Dad is actually very easy to get along with so long as he gets his own way". I thought "toddlers are very easy to get along with so long as they get their own way". I am very easy to get along with so long as I am getting my own way.
The Father cannot sin because to sin would be to go against the Father's will, and why would the Father oppose Himself?
But every other sentient being in the universe also has a will, and when this will is in opposition to the Father, that is, by definition, "evil".
Christ learned obedience by what He suffered. Christ has not forgotten what He learned. Christ learned to conform to the Father's will, no matter what pressure to do otherwise. The Holy Spirit sent from heaven will teach us to always conform to the Father's will.
I accept the hypothesis that to do the Father's will is the definition of "good".
Luk 18:19
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Let us just for a moment entertain the hypothesis that Christ is denying that He is good, and saying that only one Being is good, and that Being is God the Father.
We can always go back to believing that Christ IS good. A thought experiment means to entertain an idea we might not believe to be true. We might believe that because Christ is God, He has to be good. And wasn't he sinless? And did He not say that if you had seen Him you had seen the Father? Or He may be saying that speaking as a human he is not good, because humans can be tempted whereas God cannot. So we may have many doubts as to our hypothesis.
Let's try out our hypothesis viz. that Christ is not good, only the Father is.
How could this possibly be?
I previously stated that to do the will of God is "good" and to go against that will is "evil".
Both Jesus and the Father think and feel independently, and have independent wills.
We see this in the Garden of Gethsemane where Christ wills not to go through with the crucifixion, but the Father wills that he does.
Now I narrow the definition that to do the will of God THE FATHER is "good" and to go against that will is "evil".
Let's suppose Christ had refused to comply with the Father's will that He be crucified, then Christ would have been doing evil. Christ acknowledged this by saying "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done".
Here Christ is denying His will and affirming the Father's will as being the one that counts.
In fact Christ is pointing us to the definition of "good". Doing the Father's will is good.
There is never a time when doing the Father's will is wrong.
Christ came to reveal "goodness".
Heb 10:7
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:9
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God.
Christ came to set an example of doing the Father's will.
The Lord taught us to pray to the Father, not Himself.
Mat 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
The whole Lord's prayer is focused on the Father. Notice who's will is to be done, the Father's not Christ's.
Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Let's have a look at Jas 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
We know that Christ could be tempted, but why is it that the Father cannot be tempted?
The Father cannot be tempted to go against His own will, just like most people are not tempted to go against themselves. Especially as James explains how God is not double minded.
I remember my Mother once saying to me "You know, your Dad is actually very easy to get along with so long as he gets his own way". I thought "toddlers are very easy to get along with so long as they get their own way". I am very easy to get along with so long as I am getting my own way.
The Father cannot sin because to sin would be to go against the Father's will, and why would the Father oppose Himself?
But every other sentient being in the universe also has a will, and when this will is in opposition to the Father, that is, by definition, "evil".
Christ learned obedience by what He suffered. Christ has not forgotten what He learned. Christ learned to conform to the Father's will, no matter what pressure to do otherwise. The Holy Spirit sent from heaven will teach us to always conform to the Father's will.
I accept the hypothesis that to do the Father's will is the definition of "good".
Are you attempting to make the argument that Jesus Christ (aka the Son of God) is not God?
iouae
Well-known member
Are you attempting to make the argument that Jesus is not good?
iouae
Well-known member
I am saying that God the Father's will defines "good".
All the rest of us, even Jesus who is also part of the Godhead and God - all the rest of us are "good" when we conform to the Father's will.
It's been spelled out.