"[God] will have all men to be saved..."

[glorydaz]

Well, if God 'will have' something then nothing stops that right? If God 'wills' something then the same thing? If God wishes something then...why would God wish something if He couldn't bring it to fruition?

An all powerful loving God who can be thwarted by His own creations?

Well, He could bring it to fruition if He created us as puppets. He didn't. He wanted His love to be freely returned. That's the problem with giving someone freedom....they may go off somewhere else.

There was a time that God regretted creating man, and wiped most of them out with a flood. One of the hardest things about love is letting go of those who don't want to stay. I think it's like that.

 

[glorydaz]

No need to worry about being nice or tiptoeing with me GD. I certainly wasn't doing so with you elsewhere and was just saying exactly what I thought. So, with that in mind let's just keep to the topic as it is here.

Sounds good to me. :thumb:

 

[Arthur Brain]

Well, He could bring it to fruition if He created us as puppets. He didn't. He wanted His love to be freely returned. That's the problem with giving someone freedom....they may go off somewhere else.

We're hardly free agents given the parameters of how we're designed and our reactions to stimuli etc. Love can't be coerced and fear doesn't work if love is meant to be freely given and mean anything, yet fear is what many a church tries to 'instill' in people in order to be 'saved'. Wouldn't that ironically turn many a pew warmer into a 'puppet'?

There was a time that God regretted creating man, and wiped most of them out with a flood. One of the hardest things about love is letting go of those who don't want to stay. I think it's like that.

You don't see anything at all metaphorical about that? If not, are all those who drowned residing in some sort of hell right now or were they just literally wiped out? You're putting a very human perspective on that I think. I've loved people but it's only the darkest realm of the psyche that would wish harm on those that don't return it.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The choice being offered in lieu of the inevitable death of all men, is eternal life in the presence of the Creator, in whose presence we were created to be. The obstacle to that desirable state is our sin or falling short. Part of the overall scheme, according to my take on it, is that man was created in the likeness of the Creator and thus will always exist somewhere. Our choice then, to choose not to be with the Creator, is to wind up in the default location, as we must be located somewhere. I call it GOD's junkyard. A junkyard is where items are placed which no longer measure up to the purpose for which they were intended. Hades is temporary, Gehenna is final.

Suit yourself.

Well said.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I can't see that big.

One thing I know, is that in searching the various presentations of religions and philosophies being offered, there was one which I could not tolerate....the message of the cross.
I thought it was stupid and 'Christians' were settling for a psychological crutch to avoid reality. It was the last thing I wanted.
After years of psychotropics, meditations, yoga and the like.....one night high on fresh peyote cactus, I turned to a blank wall and said, "Jesus, if you're real, if you're really there, if you're who 'Christians' have claimed you are, if you are who you claim to be in the Bible, then please help me." I went to sleep with that request.
A day or so later, my wife asked me to read 1 Corinthians 1 and 2.
I did, and I found the words of Paul which placed me in a deep quandary. He said, in so many words, that by man's wisdom GOD could not be known, that the natural man could not receive the things of the Spirit of GOD, that the preaching of the cross, to them that are perishing, is foolishness, but was in reality the power and salvation of GOD. I had considered it foolishness, but suddenly a thought began to grow in my mind.....'Maybe I'm the fool', maybe I've got all of this upside down, maybe there's something I can't see because I'm blocked from it."
Some days later, I had the impulse to go to a local church that a neighbor of mine attended.
No one knew I was coming, only two people there even knew me and no one knew what I had been struggling with in my mind.
A missionary preacher was there preaching for that one morning.
He preached 1Co 1 and 2. He had no idea I was there, but the words he spoke were directly to me. There is no doubt in my mind about this.
I had sincerely put forth the questions to this 'Jesus' in the aloneness of the night. He was now talking to me directly. I received Him as my Savior and I tangibly felt the load of my guilt/sin debt lifted from me.
He has made Himself real to me for thirty-five years, now.
That was my choice. I've never regretted making it.

GOD has made Him to be sin, who knew no sin, so that we could be made the righteousness of GOD in Him.

I love that Testimony. EXCELLENT.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Well said.

Dear Grosnick,

I agree with you and steko wholeheartedly. Hades/Hell is temporary. It's bad enough.

God Be With You Both Always,

Michael

 

[iamaberean]

1 Timothy 2:4

Poll question. Feel free to explain your choice.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

βούλομαι
boulomai
boo'-lom-ahee
Middle voice of a primary verb; to “will”, that is, (reflexively) be willing: - be disposed, minded, intend, list (be, of own) will (-ing).

It is God's will that all men be saved, but man must also be willing to come unto the knowledge of truth.

 

[musterion]

I've mentioned before how Lately I've encountered people, otherwise doctrinally sound in most areas, who believe in U'ism. This verse seems to be one of their very few "locks..." because they say "See? God will do this!" However, they mostly write volumes of carefully reasoned arguments based on their understanding of God's character (basically same arguments as used by atheists but spun positively..."If God ____, then..."). They also insist the very word grace demands U. But all this is done very little Scriptural support.

When they preach it's the sound Gospel of grace, but I cant help but think U. has to be a denial of that Gospel...kind of like TULIP is, but from the other end of the spectrum. What's the point of Paul pleading with men to believe today if, sooner or later, God's going to see that everyone is saved anyway, even after death?

Oh yeah...they do not call themselves reformed at all (staunchly dispensational) but they are practically Calvinists when it comes to how people come to be saved. They believe in salvation by election, but ultimately everyone is going to get saved. It's very confused.

 

[musterion]

If God wills something or will have it come about, then who's any human to say He won't do it?

1. You do that every day by denying His existence.

2. Your question is insincere because your mind is already made up and won't be changed, per your will.

 

[musterion]

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

βούλομαι
boulomai
boo'-lom-ahee
Middle voice of a primary verb; to “will”, that is, (reflexively) be willing: - be disposed, minded, intend, list (be, of own) will (-ing).

It is God's will that all men be saved, but man must also be willing to come unto the knowledge of truth.

But it says God WILL have all to be saved.

[see what I mean]

 

[musterion]

Something just occurred to me. If U. is true...if God will have everyone to be saved...why the future tense? Christ's work of redemption is complete, so why hasn't He already regenerated everyone, given faith to all, and got this all over with? What would He be waiting for?

Unanswerable questions, I know.

 

[heir]

So the verse should have just said 'God will have some' then effectively...

It's God's will that all men be saved, but He's not going to make the choice for you. The work is done. Anyone, anywhere, no matter who they are or what they were doing while they were there can be saved when they trust the Lord believing that Christ died for their sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) as the man Christ Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. It's God's will for all men and it's due time you believe it!

 

[musterion]

And, Artie, unbelief is not its own justification. The reason anyone won't believe is because they first choose love their sin more. God will allow you that, but at your cost.

 

[Arthur Brain]

1. You do that every day by denying His existence.

Except I don't do that, so why should I listen to anything else you might happen to say if you're just one for making erroneous arrogant assumptions that I've already had to correct you on before?

2. Your question is insincere because your mind is already made up and won't be changed, per your will.

My mind isn't completely made up at all so chalk up another arrogant fail on your part there. Strikes me that your mind seems to be though..

 

[Arthur Brain]

I've mentioned before how Lately I've encountered people, otherwise doctrinally sound in most areas, who believe in U'ism. This verse seems to be one of their very few "locks..." because they say "See? God will do this!" However, they mostly write volumes of carefully reasoned arguments based on their understanding of God's character (basically same arguments as used by atheists but spun positively..."If God ____, then..."). They also insist the very word grace demands U. But all this is done very little Scriptural support.

When they preach it's the sound Gospel of grace, but I cant help but think U. has to be a denial of that Gospel...kind of like TULIP is, but from the other end of the spectrum. What's the point of Paul pleading with men to believe today if, sooner or later, God's going to see that everyone is saved anyway, even after death?

Oh yeah...they do not call themselves reformed at all (staunchly dispensational) but they are practically Calvinists when it comes to how people come to be saved. They believe in salvation by election, but ultimately everyone is going to get saved. It's very confused.

Is the only point of your belief in order to escape an eternal hell? If not then therein lies your answer...

 

[oatmeal]

1 Timothy 2:4

Poll question. Feel free to explain your choice.

It is God's will that all men be saved.

But not all men choose to do God's will

It was God's will that Adam and Eve not eat the fruit of that tree.

But they did, they did not adhere to God's will

Some people choose to do God's will, others do not.

It is God's will, His passionate desire, that all men be saved, but not all men choose to receive the gift of salvation.

Even fewer decide to come to the knowledge of the truth. They might have enough to be saved, so they get saved, but are not interested in living accordingly.

 

[Arthur Brain]

It's God's will that all men be saved, but He's not going to make the choice for you. The work is done. Anyone, anywhere, no matter who they are or what they were doing while they were there can be saved when they trust the Lord believing that Christ died for their sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) as the man Christ Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. It's God's will for all men and it's due time you believe it!

So what about those who lived before Christ entered the world? You reduce everything to a 'choice' as if everyone who doesn't believe in one brief speck is making a conscious decision to 'go to hell' or something.

 

[Arthur Brain]

And, Artie, unbelief is not its own justification. The reason anyone won't believe is because they first choose love their sin more. God will allow you that, but at your cost.

Uh, that's just yet another arrogant assumption on your part, though I suppose it makes it easier to judge those who don't have the same faith as you eh?

 

[nikolai_42]

I've mentioned before how Lately I've encountered people, otherwise doctrinally sound in most areas, who believe in U'ism. This verse seems to be one of their very few "locks..." because they say "See? God will do this!" However, they mostly write volumes of carefully reasoned arguments based on their understanding of God's character (basically same arguments as used by atheists but spun positively..."If God ____, then..."). They also insist the very word grace demands U. But all this is done very little Scriptural support.

When they preach it's the sound Gospel of grace, but I cant help but think U. has to be a denial of that Gospel...kind of like TULIP is, but from the other end of the spectrum. What's the point of Paul pleading with men to believe today if, sooner or later, God's going to see that everyone is saved anyway, even after death?

Oh yeah...they do not call themselves reformed at all (staunchly dispensational) but they are practically Calvinists when it comes to how people come to be saved. They believe in salvation by election, but ultimately everyone is going to get saved. It's very confused.

I wasn't going to respond in this thread, but this post of yours brings me back to something I've sensed but can't properly get my mind around. Having spent some time in the U'ism milieu, I made the observation that Universalism differs from Calvinism simply in numbers. Of course, that's an overly broad generalization, but there are some forms of what calls itself "Christian Universalism" that look very much like Calvinism on the surface. I don't believe in Universalism (though I have hoped it ardently for some time, I never could believe it fully - and now think it robs the Word of some of its power in a Matthew 15:6 sort of way) but there is - in the most evangelical forms of it - a sense of the eschaton that is very similar to that of Calvinism. That is, it takes things very much from God's perspective in looking at the end and the beginning at once - far more than addressing man in his own frame of reference (limited knowledge).

I have the sense that there is a question of epistemology here that goes to man's limited understanding and temporal limitations over and against God's eternal and complete foreknowledge. I don't have the time - and certainly not the education and sophistication - to be able to flesh it out, but the Calvinist and some universalists have understood that the tension between man's choices in a role of very limited understanding and the Sovereignty of a God who sees and knows all from the beginning can be resolved by looking at the big picture. The universalist simply jumps to the conclusion of universal salvation because God wants it, where the Calvinist sees the conflict of universalism with the judgments of God and does not want to override either. Of course the Open Theist simply downgrades God...

 

[jamie]

God's invitation to salvation through Jesus Christ is RSVP.