God Owes Us Big Time

[Lighthouse]

Is this better?

No. Look at your post. The first quote box shuold have "Originally posted by Lighthouse," at the beginning. But instead, the code that causes that to apper is outside the quote box. I don't know how you're managing to do it, but it's distracting. And quite unpleasing aestetichally.

So you assume that the Open Theist view is the only correct one. I tire of this circular arguement. It proves nothing, and you are just as set in your beliefs as I am.

Yes, I believe it is the only correct one. Because to know something that does not exist is impossible. Even for God. Because for Him to know it it would have to first exist. Just like He can't exist in wonderland, or create a rock so heavy He can't lift it. It's illogical, and imposible.

And my Orthodox view of christianity as God being all knowing....past, present and future does not impose on my free will either.

Of course not. However, if it were true, then free will would be an illusion.

:doh:

You're the one who thinks God was lying.

Funny that you would say that. Beanieboy said the same thing about God leading him to buddhism.
Perhaps you two are talking to the same god. :think:

Seeing as how beanieboy has never known God...

I didn't say fear. I said "know your enemy".
But hey, it's your choice.

I do know him. And he's weak. He's powerless.

So, you don't sin?

I am dead to sin. And sin is not the result of Satan's power over anyone.

I will say this, I am not a sinner. I am free from, dead to, sin. By the blood of Christ. I am a new creation, and I am in Christ. In Christ there is no sin. Any sin I have is in the old me. That is not who I am, anymore.

"Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin the dwelleth in me."

-Romans 7:20
​

Yes I did.

If you had proven it, then why would I still argue against it? You can't prove something that isn't true.

Hhhmmmmm.......God the cosmic gambler....... :think:
Maybe Heaven will have a place like Las Vegas, only with out the prostitution and mafia! :darwinsm:

So you don't think it was a risk? You do realize that true love takes risks, don't you?

And for some reason you haven't even touched on the idea that God, knowing who would and would not go to hell, still died for all people. Why would He do that? What would be the point of dying for all people when He knew exactly who would and who would not come to Him?

:duh:

But He still died for all men? Why?

:cow: :Shaggy: :aimiel: :troy: :crow2: :chicken: :dog:

You don't think animals do what they want?

It has everything to do with it. Even if it was postponed, it still happened. :grave:

It was not postponed. The later destruction was for a completely different reason. And still, even if it had just been a postponement [God has doen that] the truth of the matter stands. God did not do what He said He would do. He changed His mind, because they repented.

A change from what?

What do you think? His decision was a change from when He had not decided. When he thought to create, He had not thought to create before. That is a change.

OY! :doh:

What?

I know enough about hermaneutics to know when to be literal or otherwise.

Apparently not.

Same for you.........

How? Can you show me how I am ignoring anything? How am I skirting logic?

I never said or implied that God reaches in to the past and changes anything. The past does exist in the past. They call it history......

He doesn't change it, because it isn't there. It's gone. And since it isn't there, neither is He.

Does it have to be documented? :readthis:

If it isn't then to say it's true is an argument from silence.

I don't think you make sense. :nono:

Why doesn't it make sense?

If anything God (in His wisdom) chooses not to impose His knowledge (of future events) in attempt to force us to abandon our free will. That is a truly loving and omniscient God.

The only way His knowledge would not keep us from having free will is if He either chose not to know, or He couldn't know.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Originally posted by Lighthouse No. Look at your post. The first quote box shuold have "Originally posted by Lighthouse," at the beginning. But instead, the code that causes that to apper is outside the quote box. I don't know how you're managing to do it, but it's distracting. And quite unpleasing aestetichally.

There you go. :bannana:
Now if you would do something about your horrible spelling, then we could both be happy. :BRAVO:

Yes, I believe it is the only correct one. Because to know something that does not exist is impossible. Even for God. Because for Him to know it it would have to first exist. Just like He can't exist in wonderland, or create a rock so heavy He can't lift it. It's illogical, and imposible.

Impossible for God?" But Jesus looked at them and said, 'With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'" Matthew 19:26
God is either Lord of all or not at all.

Of course not. However, if it were true, then free will would be an illusion.

Does your free will have the power to save you? :nono:

You're the one who thinks God was lying.

Not God, just :mock: you.

Seeing as how beanieboy has never known God...

Just stating an observation........ :Brandon:

I do know him. And he's weak. He's powerless.

I am dead to sin. And sin is not the result of Satan's power over anyone.

I will say this, I am not a sinner. I am free from, dead to, sin. By the blood of Christ. I am a new creation, and I am in Christ. In Christ there is no sin. Any sin I have is in the old me. That is not who I am, anymore.

"Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin the dwelleth in me."

-Romans 7:20
​

It must be swell to be you.......

If you had proven it, then why would I still argue against it? You can't prove something that isn't true.

Neither can you. :nono:

So you don't think it was a risk? You do realize that true love takes risks, don't you?

After you have been married 20 years, then you can preach to me about love.
Until then......I know more about that than you.

And for some reason you haven't even touched on the idea that God, knowing who would and would not go to hell, still died for all people. Why would He do that? What would be the point of dying for all people when He knew exactly who would and who would not come to Him?


But He still died for all men? Why?

Even if you had been the only one in the whole world to sin, God still would have extended and provided salvation for you.

He died for all men even though He knew that He would be accepted by some and rejected by some. Thus no one can say that we deserved it. That's the beauty of God's grace.

You don't think animals do what they want?

Give it a rest.....this is not a part of the discussion. :spam:

It was not postponed. The later destruction was for a completely different reason. And still, even if it had just been a postponement [God has doen that] the truth of the matter stands. God did not do what He said He would do. He changed His mind, because they repented.

:blabla:

What do you think? His decision was a change from when He had not decided. When he thought to create, He had not thought to create before. That is a change.

:kookoo:

How? Can you show me how I am ignoring anything? How am I skirting logic?

You can't skirt your own logic, can you? :liberals:

He doesn't change it, because it isn't there. It's gone. And since it isn't there, neither is He.

And there you go .......tsk...tsk... :nono:
Do you have a different definition of omnipresence too?

If it isn't then to say it's true is an argument from silence.

You should run to your nearest bible college and sign up for a basic class in hermaneutics. :think:

Why doesn't it make sense?

I said you don't make sense......

The only way His knowledge would not keep us from having free will is if He either chose not to know, or He couldn't know.

You just don't get it......... :nono:

 

[Lighthouse]

There you go. :bannana:
Now if you would do something about your horrible spelling, then we could both be happy. :BRAVO:

You're going to complain about typos? I never once got anything less than an A on my spelling.

Impossible for God?" But Jesus looked at them and said, 'With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'" Matthew 19:26
God is either Lord of all or not at all.

Can God sin? Can God create a rock so bg he cannot lift it?

Does your free will have the power to save you? :nono:

Never said it did? What the hell is your fixation with free will? Do you think lying and saying I place more value on my free will than on God's omniscience makes you look more valid?

Not God, just :mock: you.

Then what did God mean?

Just stating an observation........ :Brandon:

You know, I'm not interested in you using my smilie. So don't.

It must be swell to be you.......

Why? Because I'm dead to sin?

Neither can you. :nono:

No one can prove something that isn't true. But my view is. And I can prove it from Scripture. You haven't proven anything.

After you have been married 20 years, then you can preach to me about love.
Until then......I know more about that than you.

That's complete :cow:. I know God's love. And His love is perfect, and true. Don't tell me I don't know about love!

Even if you had been the only one in the whole world to sin, God still would have extended and provided salvation for you.

So? That's not the point. Why did He die for those who would not come to Him, if He knew they wouldn't?

He died for all men even though He knew that He would be accepted by some and rejected by some. Thus no one can say that we deserved it. That's the beauty of God's grace.

But why die for someone you know isn't going to accept it? Unless you're a Universalist...:think:

Give it a rest.....this is not a part of the discussion. :spam:

Maybe not, but you're the one who brought it up.

:blabla:

Can't think of an argument?

:kookoo:

See above.

You can't skirt your own logic, can you? :liberals:

It isn;t my logic.

And there you go .......tsk...tsk... :nono:

You've run out of refutations haven't you? Now your just throwing out ad hominems because don't have anything to back you up...

Do you have a different definition of omnipresence too?

I don't know. Do you think God can exist someplace that does not exist? I don't.

You should run to your nearest bible college and sign up for a basic class in hermaneutics. :think:

There are a few other classes I would have to take.

I said you don't make sense......

To say that I don't make sense is to say that my argument doesn't make sense. So why doesn't it?

You just don't get it......... :nono:

Wrong. I believed what you believe for over twenty years. You are the one who doesn't get it.

Do you pray? Do you ask God to change things?

 

[Agape4Robin]

You're going to complain about typos? I never once got anything less than an A on my spelling. :chuckle: :darwinsm:


Can God sin? Can God create a rock so bg he cannot lift it?


Never said it did? What the hell is your fixation with free will? Do you think lying and saying I place more value on my free will than on God's omniscience makes you look more valid?


Then what did God mean?



You know, I'm not interested in you using my smilie. So don't.



Why? Because I'm dead to sin?


No one can prove something that isn't true. But my view is. And I can prove it from Scripture. You haven't proven anything.



That's complete :cow:. I know God's love. And His love is perfect, and true. Don't tell me I don't know about love!


So? That's not the point. Why did He die for those who would not come to Him, if He knew they wouldn't?


But why die for someone you know isn't going to accept it? Unless you're a Universalist...:think:



Maybe not, but you're the one who brought it up.


Can't think of an argument?



See above.




It isn;t my logic.


You've run out of refutations haven't you? Now your just throwing out ad hominems because you don't have anything to back you up...


I don't know. Do you think God can exist someplace that does not exist? I don't.



There are a few other classes I would have to take.


To say that I don't make sense is to say that my argument doesn't make sense. So why doesn't it?




Wrong. I believed what you believe for over twenty years. You are the one who doesn't get it.

Do you pray? Do you ask God to change things?

Spelling, a missing word and punctuation errors are highlighted in bold blue. There are tons more in other posts and there may be more, but I just wanted to prove a point.

I will answer this post later. For now, I'm going to bed....daughter is graduating from HS tomorrow. :BRAVO:

 

[Lighthouse]

They're not spelling errors, :shut:. They're typos. That's why only a letter is missing. You're complaining because I type too fast? And I never said my punctuation was good.:nono: As for the error you pointed out, the ; key is right next to the ' key. It's called a typo, Robin. Buy a clue.

Are you proud of your daughter, for making it further than you ever did?

 

[julie21]

Crowds watching from the sideline : "Ooh! The personal attacks have started! Now it will really get interesting!" Resumes reading other posts until next poster posts.
[Just joshing y'all for a bit of 'light' relief ]

 

[Frank Ernest]

Crowds watching from the sideline : "Ooh! The personal attacks have started! Now it will really get interesting!" Resumes reading other posts until next poster posts.
[Just joshing y'all for a bit of 'light' relief ]

:chuckle:

 

[Agape4Robin]

They're not spelling errors, :shut:. They're typos. That's why only a letter is missing. You're complaining because I type too fast? And I never said my punctuation was good.:nono: As for the error you pointed out, the ; key is right next to the ' key. It's called a typo, Robin. Buy a clue.

Are you proud of your daughter, for making it further than you ever did?

Gee, :Brandon: You think you have an answer for everything.
Typo schmypo....proof read your posts and then you can go back to thinking you're perfect again.
Don't point out meaningless errors in others unless you're prepared to receive correction yourself.
:Brandon: Didn't your mommy and daddy teach you the golden rule?

I am very proud of my daughter! :BRAVO:
I know you meant that last statement to be deprecating and venomous. You show your true colors, :Brandon:

:kiss:

 

[Agape4Robin]

Originally posted by:LighthouseYou're going to complain about typos? I never once got anything less than an A on my spelling.

:chuckle:

Can God sin? Can God create a rock so bg he cannot lift it?

On point one..... :nono:
On point two......What kind of asinine question is that?

Never said it did? What the hell is your fixation with free will? Do you think lying and saying I place more value on my free will than on God's omniscience makes you look more valid?

The Open Theist View is rife with the fixation concerning free will. It is the central point by which this false view of God is itself fixated upon.

Then what did God mean?

Are you meaning to say that God doesn't know the intention of the heart?
In the three day journey, was Abraham's intent hidden from God?
I said it before and I will say it again :doh: ...."tests" are not for God's benefit, they are for our edification. God cannot learn things He already knows.

You know, I'm not interested in you using my smilie. So don't.

"Don't use my smiley.. ":sozo2: :baby:
:Brandon: :Brandon: :Brandon: Grow up.

Why? Because I'm dead to sin?

You sound like the Pharisee in Luke 18:11-14. " The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself", 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men- extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God be merciful to me a sinner!'
" I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exhalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exhalted."
And now.....a quote from the sandbox :baby:

No one can prove something that isn't true. But my view is. :baby: And I can prove it from Scripture. You haven't proven anything. :sozo2:

:darwinsm:

That's complete :cow:. I know God's love. And His love is perfect, and true. Don't tell me I don't know about love!

You talk about taking risks, God's love is safe and sure. Try staying married to the same person for 20 years (or more), then you will understand not only what love is, but what it is not. True love is not a feeling. It is a choice you make.
Loving God/ God loving us and love between a husband and a wife are two different dynamics.

So? That's not the point. Why did He die for those who would not come to Him, if He knew they wouldn't?

It boils down to man's "free will" doesn't it? God's knowledge is independent of man's free will. That kind of knowledge is neither causative or preventive. It's purely intellectual on God's part.

But why die for someone you know isn't going to accept it? Unless you're a Universalist...:think:

Sticks and stones..... :Brandon:

Can't think of an argument?

:yawn:

It isn;t my logic.

Maybe not.......but it's one you've adopted.

You've run out of refutations haven't you? Now your just throwing out ad hominems because don't have anything to back you up...

Look in the mirror and you will see the source of my :think: .......problem. :Brandon:

I don't know. Do you think God can exist someplace that does not exist? I don't.

How do you know exhaustively what does or does not exist for God?

There are a few other classes I would have to take.

That is an understatement!

To say that I don't make sense is to say that my argument doesn't make sense. So why doesn't it?

You haven't been listening and I'm tired of talking to a thick minded child. :baby: :bang:

Wrong. I believed what you believe for over twenty years. You are the one who doesn't get it.

See above..... :yawn:

Do you pray? Do you ask God to change things?

Yep! :thumb:
I ask for wisdom. For God to reveal His purpose. To help me through the trials in my life, not to change them. What would I learn if God changed things? I know that God uses all things for the good of those who love Him and trust Him.

 

[Caledvwlch]

Robin, I've made the same point over and over again about Abraham's test being for Abraham's benefit. I usually get laughed at. I also liked this part:

It boils down to man's "free will" doesn't it? God's knowledge is independent of man's free will. That kind of knowledge is neither causative or preventive. It's purely intellectual on God's part.

I actually think the relationship between God's power and man's free will may be even more complex than simply intellectual. I think God is probably powerful enough to give us our free will while also determining our course before we are ever born. Sounds silly, I guess, but I've always thought God was a little bigger than human understanding.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Robin, I've made the same point over and over again about Abraham's test being for Abraham's benefit. I usually get laughed at. I also liked this part:

I actually think the relationship between God's power and man's free will may be even more complex than simply intellectual. I think God is probably powerful enough to give us our free will while also determining our course before we are ever born. Sounds silly, I guess, but I've always thought God was a little bigger than human understanding.

Unless, of course, you are :Brandon:

:chuckle:

 

[Lighthouse]

Gee, :Brandon: You think you have an answer for everything.
Typo schmypo....proof read your posts and then you can go back to thinking you're perfect again.

Wanna back that up? Want to prove that I ever thought I believed myself to be perfect?

Don't point out meaningless errors in others unless you're prepared to receive correction yourself.

Meaningless errors? Which meaningless errors did I point out? Are you talking about the my asking you to correctly use the quote function? All I said was that it was distracting. And I've been corrected, by plenty of people. I'm not worried about receiving correction. But you weren't accusing me of misspelling, which is not what I did.

:Brandon: Didn't your mommy and daddy teach you the golden rule?

I am very proud of my daughter! :BRAVO:
I know you meant that last statement to be deprecating and venomous. You show your true colors, :Brandon:

If you didn't already know that I could be deprecating, you haven't been paying attention.

 

[Lighthouse]

:chuckle:

And? You find it funny that I can spell?

On point one..... :nono:
On point two......What kind of asinine question is that?

So it stands that there are things God cannot do, doesn't it?

Of course the premise of the question is asinine, but that's the point. God can't do that. To think He could would be asinine.

The Open Theist View is rife with the fixation concerning free will. It is the central point by which this false view of God is itself fixated upon.

No o it isn't. Free will does align itself with this view, but free will is not the focus. The focus is the existence of time. The future does not exist. It has not happened. And saying this view is false doesn't make it false.

Are you meaning to say that God doesn't know the intention of the heart?

No.

In the three day journey, was Abraham's intent hidden from God?

No.

I said it before and I will say it again :doh: ...."tests" are not for God's benefit, they are for our edification. God cannot learn things He already knows.

No kidding. But He can learn things He doesn't already know.

Do you think Abraham had his mind made up when he set out? Or did he, like every other human, fight between what God told him, and what he wanted to do?:think:

"Don't use my smiley.. ":sozo2: :baby:
:Brandon: :Brandon: :Brandon: Grow up.

If you're right, I can't grow up until God knows I will, and we won't know when that is until it happens.

You sound like the Pharisee in Luke 18:11-14. " The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself", 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men- extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God be merciful to me a sinner!'
" I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exhalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exhalted."

I sound like the Pharisee because I quoted Paul? Have you ever read Romans 6? Or 7?

And now.....a quote from the sandbox :baby:

:darwinsm:

Then prove me wrong. Show me, in Scripture where the open view is blatantly shown to be untrue...

You talk about taking risks, God's love is safe and sure. Try staying married to the same person for 20 years (or more), then you will understand not only what love is, but what it is not. True love is not a feeling. It is a choice you make.

No kidding, dollface. I know love isn't a feeling. I know it's a choice. I even said so in a few posts about a year ago, and people started saying that since I've never been in a relationship, I don't know love. But to say I don't know love is to say God doesn't love me. I know His love. I know the love of my parents. I know the love of my family. I know the love of my friends. And I love them. I know love. God's love is perfect, and as I said, I know His love.

Loving God/ God loving us and love between a husband and a wife are two different dynamics.

:duh:

It boils down to man's "free will" doesn't it? God's knowledge is independent of man's free will. That kind of knowledge is neither causative or preventive. It's purely intellectual on God's part.

If I can't do anything other than what God knows I'll do, then I can't. So what? If I don't have free will, so what? I believe that He doesn't know, because His word says so.

Sticks and stones..... :Brandon:

I didn't say you were a Universalist. Just that if God knew who would, and who would not turn to Hi, and He died for everyone than that must mean everyone will turn to Him.

:yawn:

Apparently not.

Maybe not.......but it's one you've adopted.

No. It's God's logic, because I quit leaning on my own understanding.

Look in the mirror and you will see the source of my :think: .......problem. :Brandon:

Yeah, that's the way to deal with it. Point fingers.

How do you know exhaustively what does or does not exist for God?

If it doesn't exist, then it doesn't exist. Not even for God. Period. If it does exist for God, then it exists for us.

That is an understatement!

Going to college, requires taking a multitude of classes.

You haven't been listening and I'm tired of talking to a thick minded child. :baby: :bang:

I've heard it all before, Robin. I used to argue the same points. And still, you can say my argument is unBiblical, or contra-Biblical. And you can attempt to back that up with Scripture. But you can't say it without backing it up. Same as saying it doesn't make sense. If you're going to say that, back it up. Or shut up.

See above..... :yawn:

So you're going to take your ball and go home?

Yep! :thumb:
I ask for wisdom. For God to reveal His purpose. To help me through the trials in my life, not to change them. What would I learn if God changed things? I know that God uses all things for the good of those who love Him and trust Him.

Have you ever asked God to make a difference?

Do you believe God has never changed anything?

If God already knew what was going to happen, then He would not intervene, because there woudn't be a point.

 

[Lighthouse]

I actually think the relationship between God's power and man's free will may be even more complex than simply intellectual. I think God is probably powerful enough to give us our free will while also determining our course before we are ever born. Sounds silly, I guess, but I've always thought God was a little bigger than human understanding.

And the idea that He has determined our course, and then allows us to choose, is smaller than our understanding. If it is determined, then there is no choice. If you can't see that, you aren't thinking it through.

 

[SUTG]

Because to know something that does not exist is impossible. Even for God. Because for Him to know it it would have to first exist. Just like He can't exist in wonderland, or create a rock so heavy He can't lift it. It's illogical, and imposible.

Contradiction alert!!

How can you say it is impossible to know that something does not exist? I can show how I know about all sorts of things that do not exist. Besides, you follow this by saying that a rock so heavy god can't lift it can't exist.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Contradiction alert!!

How can you say it is impossible to know that something does not exist? I can show how I know about all sorts of things that do not exist. Besides, you follow this by saying that a rock so heavy god can't lift it can't exist.

Ok.......you got my attention.

I'm listening!! :BRAVO:

 

[Agape4Robin]

Originally posted by Lighthouse: No o it isn't. Free will does align itself with this view, but free will is not the focus. The focus is the existence of time. The future does not exist. It has not happened. And saying this view is false doesn't make it false.

It is what it is, :Brandon:

We have both used scripture to back our claims, but the bottom line is that we see things very differently.
You believe you are right and I believe I am right. It is apparent that neither of us is going to change our minds. :nono:

If it doesn't exist, then it doesn't exist. Not even for God. Period. If it does exist for God, then it exists for us.

You place God on the same level as us. He is the CREATOR. We are the CREATED. He relates to us at our level, not the other way around.

 

[Lighthouse]

Contradiction alert!!

How can you say it is impossible to know that something does not exist? I can show how I know about all sorts of things that do not exist. Besides, you follow this by saying that a rock so heavy god can't lift it can't exist.

What do you know that does not exist?

How can something unknowable be known?

And how can a rock so heavy God cannot lift it exist?

 

[Lighthouse]

Has it ever occured to any of you that God does not do all things that are possible for Him?

 

[fool]

Has it ever occured to any of you that God does not do all things that are possible for Him?

ever play chess?
sometimes when a better player goes against a lesser player he'll take a handicap
such as giving up a peice, or restricting certain peices like "i'll move my queen like a pawn"
now... what if the greater player wrote this handicap down on a peice of paper and put it under the board before the game?
how would you go about discovering the nature of the restiction?
why am I awake at 3:20 in the morning?