Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
Or the doctor was over zealous in his negative prognosis.
The facts stand.
No. The Scriptures speak of Jesus healing all He had compassion on. Did He just have compassion for those who believed?
Matthew 14:14
When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd,
he had compassion on them and healed their sick.
Matthew 4:23-24
News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures,
and the paralyzed, and he healed them.
5 minutes is too long for such a miracle as you described.
Says the Bible?
When God performs a physical miracle He does it in such a fashion as to leave no doubt about its source.
We do know that sometimes this kind of healing did not manifest immediately. Even when Jesus healed some it took time. One blind man had to be healed twice because the first time he could still only see in a blur, and the official’s son in Capernaum
began to get better.
A three month healing can just as easily be attributed to something other than a direct intervention from God.
So says you. Hebrews 6:12 says that we inherit the
promises through faith and patience, and James 1:4 says that we must let patience have her perfect work so that we can be entire and wanting nothing.
One more response of this nature will end my participation in this discussion. I will only say it once more. This is not the type of miracle we are discussing and you know it.
Just merely pointing out that all miracles are not seen immediately. My point was proven.
If what you've given here is a good example of what is on the tape then don't waste the postage. However, if what is on the tape genuinely creative physical miracles where the physical change is self evident AND verifiable then give a good example of what's on the tape and I'll PM you my address.
Teacher," said John, "
we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "
No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.
This is something I have done hundreds of times. This would be considered a miracle in the eyes of Jesus. As Jesus equated the ministry of casting out demons as a miracle. Some of the miracles I have on video were witnessed by scores of people.
I have not disputed the foundation of your belief and am not debating the Scriptural basis for such a belief.
And this has been a problem. Because my belief in the reality of miracles is rooted in Scripture not in experience. Yey, you're wanting me to share stories and link you to realities of physical miracles. I could do that all day and you could dismiss them for one reason or another. But with Scripture as our standard one can be convinced of this absolute truth.
While it is true that I disagree with your Biblical reasoning,
Ok. You disagree then show me where I'm wrong. Nobody has accomplished that yet. I find it strange that nobody has dealt with the Scriptural foundation of my belief that miracles occur today. It speaks volumes.
Biblical reasoning can be debated forever without resolution because those involved in the debate are not usually attempting to resolve anything in the first place,
Huh? Scripture is our objective truth standard not physical evidence. There is no physical evidence of the nature of the Trinity, yet we believe it due to the reality of the Scriptures.
but physical evidence speaks for itself.
Ok. Here is a well documented physical evidence of a miracle that I have mentioned 3 times now. Deal with this:
Were there miracles on the set of THE PASSION during filming?
(A) Mel Gibson states in an interview, "There have been a lot of unusual things happening, good things like people being healed of diseases, a couple of people have had sight and hearing restored, another guy was struck by lightning while we were filming the crucifixion scene and he just got up and walked away."
http://www.passion-movie.com/english/faq3.html
If you cannot produce credible evidence that physical miracles are occurring today then it is logically inescapable that your Biblical reasoning is flawed at best and more likely completely wrong altogether.
You have put experience before the truth of Scripture. You have it all twisted. If the Bible says it then we believe it and it's not because the physical evidence proves it. This is why we believe miracles are for today--because the Scriptural evidence not because of the physical evidence.
The just shall live by faith not by sight.
Clete,
if the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.
If Jesus’ miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldn’t they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Can’t we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?
Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete
Should be read: Resting in His physical evidence. :kookoo:
Homework: We are told in Holy Scripture that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Clete, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.
Clete, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).
The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this????
Under the New Covenant, the superior covenant, we are taught numerous times of the reality of spiritual gifts and miracles. In fact...
At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Poster, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him
