Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

This attitude is obvious in your all of your posts which just makes it all the more surprising to me that you come down on this side of this issue. Be that as it may, I respect your position even though I believe it to unfounded both Biblically and otherwise.
You have not missed anything as far as proof texts or any other Biblical argument from me as I have made almost none. My argument rests solely on the lack of physical evidence for physical miracles happening today. If your Biblical position is correct then such evidence will be available. I believe this to be axiomatic. Therefore since we know that the Bible is not flawed in any way then if such physical evidence does not exist then your Biblical position is wrong.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

This sounds like an argument I would expect from a skeptic who does not know God and His Word. Philosophically, it could have value, but see my other post a minute ago. I contend that the evidence is out there. Miracles do wax and wane in church history as do revivals in the church and spiritual awakenings in society. God is sovereign, but man can and does limit the outpouring of the ministry of the Holy Spirit in our lives, churches, and society. This fits with an Open Theist world view. cf. Chronicles condition...IF my people humble themselves and pray....THEN... Church history and the modern Pentecostal movement attest to the workings of God...

i) Do miracles happen today in my limited sphere of knowledge?

No....therefore,

ii) the Bible must be interpreted to mean that miracles have ceased for this generation.

(I hope this is not your reasoning, because you have the cart before the horse).

Would a better approach be:

i) What does the Bible explicitly teach about miracles, healing, etc. for the church and world (life and ministry of Christ, OT, Book of Acts, epistles, Church History)? I expect a Scriptural argument (like the closing of the canon/apostolic validation), not an experiential one...doctrine before practice.

ii) Is there evidence to support the ongoing ministry of Christ through the Church by the Spirit? (I believe there is). If we are not seeing evidence of this, is it because we have not searched out all sources of this evidence or have not personally experienced it or know someone who has (I know people that were healed when medicine could not give them hope)? Is it because we are not believing God and His Word and quenching and grieving the Spirit because we have bought into the Western scientific mindset of touch, taste, feel, hear, see (materialism...only matter is real...no room for spiritual or Divine)?

This I know...Jesus is God with a face....His life and ministry reflect the heart and ways of the Father. His power, compassion, love, healing, miracles have not ceased to be replaced by the arm of the flesh. Man still has tremendous needs, demons are still active in the warfare, and God still is glorified when He supernaturally intervenes in our world (He is not a passive Deist God). We may not be intellectual atheists, but it is possible to be a functional atheist, living as if God does not exist or care. I would be reticent to limit God based on a desire to hold to a pre-conceived theology (extreme dispensationalism that puts God in our limited box...again, we need a Scriptural argument since Jesus reveals that He came to destroy the works of sin and Satan...they are still ongoing, hence, His ministry through the Church should still be ongoing).

You know Jesus as Lord, Savior, Provider, King. Pentecostals want all men to also know Him as Healer and Deliver from the power of sin and Satan. I mentioned Gospel for Asia before. They are a non-Pentecostal missions organization that reports of the Gospel being preached with villages in India coming to Christ because the Word is confirmed with signs following. When the village Hindu priest is healed or delivered from the power of Satan, just like in the Gospels and Acts, many come to Christ. Perhaps your problem is that you live in the North American academic and affluent comfort zone and need to be exposed to the spiritual warfare that is waged in 3rd world countries and our streets. All the teaching and $ in the world will not free a man from demon possession or heal an incurable disease. This is the domain of Jehovah- Rophi ( Exodus 15), the Lord who Heals (He is still in the biz, bud).

 

[1Way]

Excellent !!! So now lets clearly develope what that means...

Excellent !!! So now lets clearly develope what that means...

DrBrumley - Excellent. We understand what those words imply, but I think most people do not, especially those like Freak who pretend to know what Bob teaches, but really only have a superficial understanding.

Please (everyone) help us illustrate very plainly this correct answer (or watch patiently as DrBrumley will naturally develop it) so that everyone may clearly understand what Bob is saying the bible teaches about the nature of what a miracle really is. This issue is a very important one, and helps us get into a seriously humbling and biblically conforming mindset when it comes to making claims about the things of God.

You get an A for correctness and an A+++ for the art of brevity. (chuckles) Keep up the good work.

 

[godrulz]

I think we can all agree on a definition of a miracle. Is not the question whether God is doing them since the book of Acts?

 

[1Way]

godrulz - Thank you for graciously accepting my apology, and caring respose. Please reread posts 175 (mostly the lower portion) and 177 to see significant corrections. And again, thanks goes to Knight (and the HS of course) for helping me see my error, grace is well with Knight. Building up, and tearing down (each other), those are interesting ideas, yet not always exclusive to each other. In fact, often they are positively mutually inclusive. Even for, especially for me.

May we continue to see Christ working in us to His glory.



As to your last question, sure, I "IMAGINE" that we CAN have a common understanding, BUT, until we get to the point of understanding the differences involved, it is impossible to move on without multiplying the confussion. We are using at least two very different understandings of what a miracle is, if not more. That much has been only constantly demostrated in this thread by everyone.

Understanding comes first, one doable step at a time.

Perhaps we should start with you, how does that definition correct or change your previous conceptions? (Because the differences are significant, and the meathod of honorably seeking the truth from God's word is exceedinly noteworthy!)

 

[godrulz]

I apologize for my laziness, but I do not think I have a good grasp of the issues of this thread (I am jumping off on a tangent perhaps) or the definitions. I would be curious of what word studies of 'miracles', 'healing', etc. would turn up. There must be a distinction between a miracle (perhaps creative miracle or intervention) and a physical healing of the body (that does not involve restoration as much as dealing with illness?).

"An event that supercedes natural or supernatural law"? Is that our working definition from Enyart? It is reasonable to assume that there is more than one way to define miracle based on a composite of word studies and context from Scripture (dictionaries define words with different word orders, but mean the same general thing).

I believe a miracle does suspend or supercede the normative natural law, but please clarify the last part...what does it mean to supercede a supernatural law (this seems to be a redundant statement)?? I agree with the first part, but this definition may not be exhaustive. A crane or God can move a car off the ground...it is a miracle when God does it; it is a law of nature when man does the same thing.

 

[1Way]

Dont pass go, don't collect 200 we gotta wait

Dont pass go, don't collect 200 we gotta wait

godrulz - As to

"An event that supercedes natural or supernatural law"? Is that our working definition from Enyart? It is reasonable to assume that there is more than one way to define miracle based on a composite of word studies and context from Scripture (dictionaries define words with different word orders, but mean the same general thing).

From memory, perhaps 4-5 years ago, I think that definition is correct, yet it is highly underdeveloped in terms of what does that mean. And yes, there are way too many ways to define what a miracle is, that is a huge part of the problem. We need to have a more united and biblically comprehensive understanding which has been largely passed over by many and mainstream authorities/traditions. I have a sense for it, but I am not (currently) prepared to expose it without reconsidering the information involved, that is why I am currently seeking everyone elses help on this. I'm not even sure if this was best illustrated in the written Plot, or the audio tapes. Yet the meaning and demonstration of a good bible honoring search for the truth is crucial to this entire endeavor. I really hope someone will illustrate and develop what Bob says a miracle really is and what it is not, and the biblical principles that govern these findings. It really shows a deeply devotional side of Bob's ministry and thoughtfulness prior to putting his teachings on paper.

I'm thinking of my dear old favorite, the truth in context. We can be almost right in a foundational idea, and the error is just multiplied as we errantly move on under a weak foundation.

I'll see if I can do justice to this development, but it would so encouraging to see others be so understanding prior to judging against his view (Like Freak for example). I think that is why the Dr. has not yet spilled the beans, but only opened the can, shrewd the wise Dr. is.

You said

please clarify the last part...what does it mean to supercede a supernatural law (this seems to be a redundant statement)??

Exactly to the point. God's ways are extremely ordered and conventional despite them being greater than our ways, they are also highly understandable at least on a fundamental basis. We say God is good and wise, not just because the bible says so, but because of His awesome ways in creation for example. We also say God is intellectual, personal, moral, social, creative, etc. etc. etc. And we say all these not just from a head knowledge of reading His word, but because He demonstrates His qualities in reality. Same sort of comprehensive discernment is involved in this sort of search for what a miracle really is. Go beyond the superficial, and get to the heart of it all.

As for me, until I locate this excellent treatment of what a miracle really is, I do not want to mess it up, I have never heard anyone put it as well as he did, and I know I would not do it justice prior to doing a formal review. This will be a great exercise. Perhaps you might be of some service yourself? I am pretty sure this teaching is in the written Plot.

 

[Freak]

Re: Re: What a joke...

Re: Re: What a joke...

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

So the "homework" you presumed to be in a position to assign is unnecessary.

But it is necessary if you want the Scriptural evidence for miracles for today.

You, however have a more difficult assignment...
SHOW ME THE MIRACLE!

How do you define a miracle? Would you consider the new birth in Christ a miracle? What about the casting out of demons? Emotional healing? Physical Healing? The opening of a closed womb?

You could even perform one if you like. Just be sure to document it in some independently verifiable way.

I have performed many, in fact hundreds. In light of what Jesus tells us in Mark 9 concerning what is a miracle, I have seen hundreds.

By the way, deal with the Holy Scriptures...

We are told in Holy Scripture that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Clete, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc????

The Holy Scriptures don't seem to make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from other when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13).

Homework for Clete:

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the apostles, as you claim, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question.

If Jesus’ miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God, as you claim, and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldn’t they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Can’t we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?

At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Poster, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

 

[Freak]

Re: Dont pass go, don't collect 200 we gotta wait

Re: Dont pass go, don't collect 200 we gotta wait

Originally posted by 1Way
As for me, until I locate this excellent treatment of what a miracle really is, I do not want to mess it up, I have never heard anyone put it as well as he did, and I know I would not do it justice prior to doing a formal review. This will be a great exercise. Perhaps you might be of some service yourself? I am pretty sure this teaching is in the written Plot.

Jesus gave us a excellent treatment what He would consider a miracle in Mark 9:

Acording to Jesus a miracle is this:

Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us.

 

[1Way]

That is presumptuous to think that God may not have a significantly broader and more comprehensive developement of what miracles are than what you keep presenting. You don't understand what Bob teaches beyond a suferficial understanding, so cool your jets already.

Do you have ANY problems with Bob's definition as recently repeated? Can you develope what Bob means about supernatural and natural laws?

 

[freelight]

where are the faithful?

where are the faithful?

It still amazes me that some 'believers' :ha: do not have the faith to believe God for miracles (some which fall into answers to prayer)...because they no longer see any miracles happening around them. What kind of 'faith' community do you belong to? Perhaps it is not a faith community and your 'church' is not a vibrant center of Gods power effective enough to touch, transform, heal and rejuvenate lives. The same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead is alive and well today and vibrant in the body of Christ - for those who allow the quickening power of the Spirit to operate. Needs of all kinds exist in the church and the world - and that is why God poured the power of His Spirit on the church - that we may in His name do the works of God. Jesus said signs would follow believers and taught that faith has the power to do what could be defined as miracles. I listed these verses in a previous post. So...you would choose to deny Jesus and his teachings. Amazing......and then claim your dispensational 'truth' as to limit God because you no longer see evidence of miracles around you - some faith eh. But you believe the miracles of the past and those recorded from the past just because they are written down to have actually happened - but you didnt see them - you believe them anyhow - now thats faith! Maybe if you belonged to a more vibrant fellowship of faith-filled believers and tradition of prayer, faith and the power of God you would see what could be termed miracles in your midst - these do not have to be huge miracles such as the parting of the Red Sea or having it rain frogs, even raising the dead .....however many enhancements of natural law take place such as in accelerated healings and answers to prayer all the time! The power of prayer and dynamics of faith have even been proven clinically in scientific studies in the growth of living things and the recovery of sick people. It is unfortunate that some have no sense of the power of God or the metaphysics of faith and the power of Spirit. And to call yourselves christians! This is sad. You claim to have faith in God...but it is limited and qualified by your custom theology. Therefore Jesus says....'let be according to your faith' (or lack thereof!). Those who have faith will bear the fruit of that faith.
My experience and calling has shown me that your view is constrictive and does not harness the full powers of God that He has anointed His church to exercise in the earth. Your experience has shown to you that God is now impotent and has withdrawn His miracle powers - however millions of believers who have experienced Gods intervention/presence have faith otherwise...that God is alive and well today and quickening by His Spirit - he lives and moves among the assemby of the faithful.....who are filled with the fullness of God and the Holy Spirit. You can choose to deny Jesus and his teaching......and keep your religious views as 'authority' above them - but I would think twice about your so-called faith and identification as a 'christian'.

That being said.....we have already went over Bobs logic about miracles not producing faith - thats old hat. Miracles do not necessarily happen to get others to have faith...but are the products, fruits, manifestations of FAITH! God works thru FAITH!
Particularly in the NT or dispensaton of grace. Time to look at spiritual truth instead of your systematic theology. THe Spirit still gives Life.

You still have yet to face the reality of the scriptures Freak has posted many times and question the potency of your own faith as those who need prayer come to you to be helped - I suppose you might tell them.....God no longer heals or does miracles...so bear your burden and you 'might' be saved. God works thru natural laws and can supercede them or enhance them as thru the laws of faith, prayer and consciousness. These are metaphysical realities for those who can perceive them.

Its just sad that some call themselves christians and dont believe as Jesus believed......and discount his teaching on faith. It makes no sense.....to serve an impotent God and a powerless Christ.....while living a religion that puts limits on the power of faith (this faith being of God).


May God awaken faith in His church!


paul

 

[godrulz]

I might not agree with other areas of Freelight's views, but like the heart of the above post.

Possible dilemmas:

- If one is convinced or becomes convinced that miracles/healings/deliverances happen today, it would be hard to accept the premise of "The Plot" (supposed overview that resolves all doctrinal conflict).

- If I am to accept the premise and conclusions of Enyart, then I have to go against my Scriptural and experiential convictions about OSAS and the charismata.

- Since "The Plot" is one of thousands of good books, I will likely accept much of its teachings while finding fault with other areas (the two above...the net result is that the book has strengths and weaknesses in its logic and interpretation of Scripture).

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by godrulz

I might not agree with other areas of Freelight's views, but like the heart of the above post.

Possible dilemmas:

- If one is convinced or becomes convinced that miracles/healings/deliverances happen today, it would be hard to accept the premise of "The Plot" (supposed overview that resolves all doctrinal conflict).

-

Exactly. :up: Scripture is very clear and yet you still have some denying the truth. Go figure.

 

[Freak]

Re: where are the faithful?

Re: where are the faithful?

Originally posted by freelight

It still amazes me that some 'believers' :ha: do not have the faith to believe God for miracles (some which fall into answers to prayer)...because they no longer see any miracles happening around them. What kind of 'faith' community do you belong to? Perhaps it is not a faith community and your 'church' is not a vibrant center of Gods power effective enough to touch, transform, heal and rejuvenate lives. The same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead is alive and well today and vibrant in the body of Christ - for those who allow the quickening power of the Spirit to operate. Needs of all kinds exist in the church and the world - and that is why God poured the power of His Spirit on the church - that we may in His name do the works of God. Jesus said signs would follow believers and taught that faith has the power to do what could be defined as miracles. I listed these verses in a previous post. So...you would choose to deny Jesus and his teachings. Amazing......and then claim your dispensational 'truth' as to limit God because you no longer see evidence of miracles around you - some faith eh. But you believe the miracles of the past and those recorded from the past just because they are written down to have actually happened - but you didnt see them - you believe them anyhow - now thats faith! Maybe if you belonged to a more vibrant fellowship of faith-filled believers and tradition of prayer, faith and the power of God you would see what could be termed miracles in your midst - these do not have to be huge miracles such as the parting of the Red Sea or having it rain frogs, even raising the dead .....however many enhancements of natural law take place such as in accelerated healings and answers to prayer all the time! The power of prayer and dynamics of faith have even been proven clinically in scientific studies in the growth of living things and the recovery of sick people. It is unfortunate that some have no sense of the power of God or the metaphysics of faith and the power of Spirit. And to call yourselves christians! This is sad. You claim to have faith in God...but it is limited and qualified by your custom theology. Therefore Jesus says....'let be according to your faith' (or lack thereof!). Those who have faith will bear the fruit of that faith.
My experience and calling has shown me that your view is constrictive and does not harness the full powers of God that He has anointed His church to exercise in the earth. Your experience has shown to you that God is now impotent and has withdrawn His miracle powers - however millions of believers who have experienced Gods intervention/presence have faith otherwise...that God is alive and well today and quickening by His Spirit - he lives and moves among the assemby of the faithful.....who are filled with the fullness of God and the Holy Spirit. You can choose to deny Jesus and his teaching......and keep your religious views as 'authority' above them - but I would think twice about your so-called faith and identification as a 'christian'.

That being said.....we have already went over Bobs logic about miracles not producing faith - thats old hat. Miracles do not necessarily happen to get others to have faith...but are the products, fruits, manifestations of FAITH! God works thru FAITH!
Particularly in the NT or dispensaton of grace. Time to look at spiritual truth instead of your systematic theology. THe Spirit still gives Life.

You still have yet to face the reality of the scriptures Freak has posted many times and question the potency of your own faith as those who need prayer come to you to be helped - I suppose you might tell them.....God no longer heals or does miracles...so bear your burden and you 'might' be saved. God works thru natural laws and can supercede them or enhance them as thru the laws of faith, prayer and consciousness. These are metaphysical realities for those who can perceive them.

Its just sad that some call themselves christians and dont believe as Jesus believed......and discount his teaching on faith. It makes no sense.....to serve an impotent God and a powerless Christ.....while living a religion that puts limits on the power of faith (this faith being of God).


May God awaken faith in His church!


paul

:up: :thumb: :up:

 

[1Way]

That is presumptuous to think that God may not have a significantly broader and more comprehensive developement of what miracles are than what you keep presenting. You don't understand what Bob teaches beyond a suferficial understanding, so cool your jets already.

Do you have ANY problems with Bob's definition as recently repeated? Can you develope what Bob means about supernatural and natural laws?

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by 1Way

That is presumptuous to think that God may not have a significantly broader and more comprehensive developement of what miracles are than what you keep presenting.

I think miracles are broader then simply the casting out of demons...but let's start with that, in light of what Jesus said in Mark 9.

You don't understand what Bob teaches beyond a suferficial understanding, so cool your jets already.

Yet you told me:

quote:
And it's not realy as much the closing of the cannon, altough that much is pretty accurate,

Ah! Good. So you admit I'm "pretty accurate" in understanding Bob's view on this subject. Let's start there...

We are told in Holy Scripture that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. 1Way, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.

1Way, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this????

Homework for 1Way:

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

If Jesus’ miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldn’t they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Can’t we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?

Under the New Covenant, the superior covenant, we are taught numerous times of the reality of spiritual gifts and miracles. In fact...

At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Poster, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

 

[1Way]

godrulz - I am still waiting to find out if you will journey in God's word to find the treasure and gold I told you about. I need to know if you can and will do it, or if you wont or need help. Please let me know :1Way: or another. Thanks. Here's the link. Click here to go for the gold! Happy digging!

 

[Clete]

Re: Re: Re: What a joke...

Re: Re: Re: What a joke...

Originally posted by Freak

But it is necessary if you want the Scriptural evidence for miracles for today.
How do you define a miracle? Would you consider the new birth in Christ a miracle? What about the casting out of demons? Emotional healing? Physical Healing? The opening of a closed womb?

Anything that can not happen without the direct intervention of God would be a miracle. However, for the sake of this conversation it is not useful to include things like salvation or most of the other things you've listed because most of them simply can not be verified in any meaningful way. Emotional healing for example would be especially hard to confirm because how would you be able to show that the "illness" was genuine in the first place. This is true of nearly every so called miracle that Televangelists have ever performed; They supposedly heal some sickness or injury that can not be verified to have ever existed in the first place. Why don't we ever see anyone who's lost their hair due ot chemo therapy come up on the stage and be healed, then walk away with a full head of hair that everyone in the audience just watched grow out of their head? Why do we never see someone who is mangled with arthritis come up on stage and be healed to the point that they can juggle bowling pins again?
If any supernatural miracles are happening at all then surely these type are happening as well, so why isn't there even one single shred of verifiable evidence that such miracles happen today?
Why?

I have performed many (miracles), in fact hundreds. In light of what Jesus tells us in Mark 9 concerning what is a miracle, I have seen hundreds.

Prove it.
That all I ask. If the miracles were creative supernatural physical miracles then that shouldn't even be difficult at all. If you have in fact performed hundreds of them then you should have a whole filing cabinet full of such verifiable documentation.
So I say it again; if what you say is true...
Prove it!


As for the repeated section of your post I will repeat my response.

If your Biblical position is correct as to the occurrence of modern day, creative, physical miracles then there will be definitive, verifiable, physical evidence of such miracles. If such evidence does not exist then your position is wrong and in need of modification. Conversely, if such evidence can be produced and verified then it is my position that is in need of modification.
This should be the easiest time you ever had of proving somebody wrong Freak! Just produce the evidence that what you are saying is true and poof you win your first debate!


Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[Freak]

Re: Re: Re: Re: What a joke...

Re: Re: Re: Re: What a joke...

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Anything that can not happen without the direct intervention of God would be a miracle.

That would include the new birth in Jesus Christ, santification, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, etc...

However, for the sake of this conversation it is not useful to include things like salvation or most of the other things you've listed because most of them simply can not be verified in any meaningful way.

Can't be verified? Huh? We are given tests in Scripture to see whether one is in Christ.

Emotional healing for example would be especially hard to confirm because how would you be able to show that the "illness" was genuine in the first place.

Clete, you really haven't thought this through have you? Any healed rape victim would tell you that he/or she's violation that caused the brokenness of the spirit/or heart was quite genuine. Would you deny this? The testimony of Scripture tells us that, "He (God) heals the brokenhearted." This, my friend, is emotional healing--the healing of the heart. It is a supernatural miracle--for it comes from God.

This is true of nearly every so called miracle that Televangelists have ever performed;

You watch too much television. I can't comment on tele-evangelists due to the fact I rarely watch tv.

If any supernatural miracles are happening at all then surely these type are happening as well, so why isn't there even one single shred of verifiable evidence that such miracles happen today?Why?

I could give you testimony after testimony but you would simply mock it. So, let's turn to the Word of God and see what God's Word has to say about the giving of the gift of miracles to His church to use, to bring healing to those who are sick...

We are told in Holy Scripture that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Clete, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.

Clete, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this????

Homework for Clete:

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

Prove it.

Scripture is my proof that God does miracles for He gives the gift of miracles to His Body. Scripture tells us that this true.

That all I ask. If the miracles were creative supernatural physical miracles then that shouldn't even be difficult at all. If you have in fact performed hundreds of them then you should have a whole filing cabinet full of such verifiable documentation.
So I say it again; if what you say is true...
Prove it!

My proof is rooted in Scripture not in experience. But, I do have number of videos of demons being cast out. I'll send one to you if you'd like.

If your Biblical position is correct as to the occurrence of modern day, creative, physical miracles then there will be definitive, verifiable, physical evidence of such miracles. If such evidence does not exist then your position is wrong and in need of modification.

Since Scripture is not good enough for you. Here is one example I came across recently:

Were there miracles on the set of THE PASSION during filming?

(A) Mel Gibson states in an interview, "There have been a lot of unusual things happening, good things like people being healed of diseases, a couple of people have had sight and hearing restored, another guy was struck by lightning while we were filming the crucifixion scene and he just got up and walked away."

http://www.passion-movie.com/english/faq3.html

Conversely, if such evidence can be produced and verified then it is my position that is in need of modification.
This should be the easiest time you ever had of proving somebody wrong Freak!

I have already accomplished it. You're sounding more like an atheist then a Christian who constantly demands the evidence of the reality of Jesus Christ in our modern day.

Just produce the evidence that what you are saying is true and poof you win


Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

I already have. Scripture, my standard for truth, has clearly spoken.
Under the New Covenant, the superior covenant, we are taught numerous times of the reality of spiritual gifts and miracles. In fact...

At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Poster, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

 

[Clete]

Freak,

I'm very disappointed and a bit angry.

Why do you even bother spending the time to write these posts if you have no real intention of actually engaging the debate?
You know full well the points I was getting across in my last post and yet you chose to respond as though I was making an entirely different point and you completely ignore the thrust of my argument.
I have already clearly stated that I do not deny that miracles are not only possible but have in fact happened and that things like being saved while miraculous are not useful in this discussion because it is obvious that those things happen and they are therefore not the sort of miracles that are in dispute. Further, as you pointed out this type of spiritual miracle can indeed be verified by spritual means (Biblical evidence). My entire point is that physical miracles should be verifiable by physical evidence.
Now I know that you were already aware of this before you wasted my time with your last post because nobody can be that stupid. Therefore, since you obviously cannot or will not engage me directly then I will leave you with a very clear choice to make.
Either...
1. Present to me evidence that I can personally verify that creative physical miracles are occurring today. OR...

2. Don't respond to me at all.

Put up or shut up! I will not respond to you any further otherwise.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Freak,

I'm very disappointed and a bit angry.

Don't let that sun set before putting away that anger of yours.

Further, as you pointed out this type of spiritual miracle can indeed be verified by spritual means (Biblical evidence). My entire point is that physical miracles should be verifiable by physical evidence.

And this was my point you failed to see, my friend. Physical miracles, along with spiritual miracles, can be verified by spiritual means--Scriptural evidence. If the Revealed Word of God speaks of the possibility of miracles occuring, which it does, then whom am I to challenge God on this?

Clete, you acknowledge that spiritual miracles occur today due to God's Word view on this issue. I would submit that the same could be said about physical miracles--a miracle is a miracle--it is, what you refer to as a "direct intervention of God."

Either...
1. Present to me evidence that I can personally verify that creative physical miracles are occurring today. OR...

I already gave you one example. But here's another one:

http://latc.com/2003/09/24/community/news01.html

Shelton's 38 years in the military included two years in Vietnam and service in the 173rd Airborne Brigade and Green Berets. In addition to having been an adviser to the president and a member of the National Security Council, he has been awarded the Congressional Gold Medal, the Purple Heart and six Distinguished Service Medals. He has been decorated by 15 foreign governments and knighted by Queen Elizabeth.

His 6-foot-6-inch military bearing and commanding presence at the Celebrity Forum belied his recent personal battle. Only months after his retirement, following 400 parachute jumps from 30,000 feet, the former special ops soldier fell from a ladder outside his home, landed with his head caught in a chain-link fence and was partially paralyzed from the neck down.

The man was "partially paralyzed" from the neck down....but....his faith in God allow him to see a healing miracle....

The doctor told Shelton he would never walk or use his hands again. Shelton said he checked the doctor's name tag for "God"; he didn't see it. Eighty-four days later he walked out on his own, and he is now close to 100 percent recovered. The unfortunate experience taught him an invaluable lesson -- "the importance of faith, family and friends when the chips are down."