ECT For those who believe God requires works to be or stay saved

[nikolai_42]

Question:

What is their purpose? How do works figure in to you getting or staying justified, to the point that without works you will be lost? What is it exactly that your works do for you, or for God, or both?

You aren't OJAJ?

If our works aren't the ground of our justification, how can they be the ground for a supposed unjustification? If, for the moment, we assume we can become unjustified before God, it wouldn't be works that did it, but departing from God. Works are just evidences of what is in the heart. A man can lie prostrate before an idol without worshiping it - likewise, a man's idolatry of that same idol can be hidden from sight...for a time. It's what is in our heart that is at issue.

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Matthew 12:36-37

For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Luke 6:43-45

It seems the Lord was more concerned with our words even than our actions. And He roundly chastised the hypocrites whose words and actions didn't line up with each other (so they would, per Matthew 12:37 above be condemned by their own hypocrisy):

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Matthew 23:1-3

And since we read in James that the tongue has been tamed by no man, that's really a good measure to judge one's religion (in the KJV sense of the word). Because it speaks of the condition of the heart. So will the sinful act negate one's salvation? One's justification? Surely not - since it wasn't by works to begin with. But...

In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
Titus 2:7-8

In other words, it's the heart that will be judged. And if God doesn't change it, we have no hope before Him in the day of judgment. And we won't point to our works, but to the Savior. Those that do point to their own works are trusting in themselves.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
John 3:20-21

 

[Cross Reference]

Is justification and sanctification one in the same? What's the difference?

 

[nikolai_42]

Is justification and sanctification one in the same? What's the difference?

Justification is quite simply the basis for our (right) standing before God. Is it our works or Christ? Sanctification is, in brief, being transformed into the image of the Savior.

My understanding and words...

 

[Cross Reference]

Justification is quite simply the basis for our (right) standing before God.

The righteous man without the knowledge of Jesus Christ will, in that day, be judged by his works, the law of God being written upon his heart that will testify to his "blamelessness". "And “If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?” 1 Peter 4:18 (ESV) . . the rejecter of God and His new creation?

Is it our works or Christ?

The knowledge of Christ in such a one will make that determination.

Sanctification is, in brief, being transformed into the image of the Savior.

How 'bout we understand sanctification to be about the event of one's new birth from above? Who conceives this holy new birth if not the Holy Spirit, as He did Jesus in the womb of Mary?

My understanding and words..

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Sanctification is, in brief, being transformed into the image of the Savior.

I agree with that, and it only begins at conversion.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

LA

 

[Cross Reference]

I agree with that, and it only begins at conversion.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

LA

Can it not be arrived at in this present life by the pursuit of God to know Him? Does not John state as much to that being correct in his letter of 1John 2?

 

[Arsenios]

I agree with that,
and
it [sanctification] only begins at conversion.

2Co 3:18
But we are all,
with open face,
beholding as in a reflection
the Glory of the Lord,
being transformed
into that same image
from Glory to Glory,
even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

LA

Were the Jews converted?

This passage would seem to say that the beginning is when one first experiences the Glory of the Lord, however reflected...

How do you understand "with open face" in your citation?

Arsenios

 

[Cross Reference]

Question:

What is their purpose? How do works figure in to you getting or staying justified, to the point that without works you will be lost? What is it exactly that your works do for you, or for God, or both?

The promises of God are of no value to us until by obedience we understand the nature of God. The Christian's works are to reveal the evidence of his God given new birth that the further pursuing of God to know Him as Father will Christ Jesus chose that one who enters this process to know for the purpose of becoming His son. cf John 1:12; 17:3 (KJV)

 

[OCTOBER23]

MR RELIIGION said,

What God requires, Christ provides. God mercifully has provided his Son as a twofold substitute for us. Both aspects of Christ’s substitution are crucial for our becoming right with God (justified).
-----------------------------------------------------------

Then why does JESUS say that you have to OVERCOME WHICH IS WORKING ON SELF.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Then why does JESUS say that we Must OVERCOME AND DENY OURSELVES ?

 

[Cross Reference]

MR RELIIGION said,

What God requires, Christ provides. God mercifully has provided his Son as a twofold substitute for us. Both aspects of Christ’s substitution are crucial for our becoming right with God (justified).
-----------------------------------------------------------

Then why does JESUS say that you have to OVERCOME WHICH IS WORKING ON SELF.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Then why does JESUS say that we Must OVERCOME AND DENY OURSELVES ?

Quite obviously, Mr Religion is wrong, isn't he? Ask yourself the question as to why God chastens His own? Chastens them for what??

 

[God's Truth]

Justification is quite simply the basis for our (right) standing before God. Is it our works or Christ? Sanctification is, in brief, being transformed into the image of the Savior.

My understanding and words...

The person wanting to be saved HAS TO HAVE FAITH.

The person has to have living faith, faith that is not dead is faith with obedience.

We are sanctified by obeying His Word.

 

[God's Truth]

God does not save unbelievers. God does not give faith to those who do not believe and those who do not obey.

Faith is from God, from reading His powerful message, the Bible, the New Testament. It has the powerful message that saves. We do not get faith supernaturally, as many teach, but we get faith in a very human way, from reading the supernatural message!

Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.

 

[OCTOBER23]

ya GOTTA BELIEVE.

SERVE GOD THROUGH THICK AND THIN ALWAYS AND GET A FANTASTIC REWARD.

BECAUSE THERE AINT NO REWARD IN THIS SOCIETY OF SATAN - ONLY DEATH.

Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe?

shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward

who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
1 ¶ What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

 

[Interplanner]

Yes, there has to be fruit.

 

[Totton Linnet]

You better believe it, but you think it impossible.

Thus you testify that you have not.

LA

Evidently everything does not include your pc and everything that goes to making it operable

 

[Totton Linnet]

Yes, there has to be fruit.

Do the branches produce fruit or the Vine?

 

[God's Truth]

ya GOTTA BELIEVE.

SERVE GOD THROUGH THICK AND THIN ALWAYS AND GET A FANTASTIC REWARD.

BECAUSE THERE AINT NO REWARD IN THIS SOCIETY OF SATAN - ONLY DEATH.

Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe?

shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward

who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
1 ¶ What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Amen.

 

[God's Truth]

Do the branches produce fruit or the Vine?

We HAVE TO OBEY.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

We HAVE TO OBEY.

Yes if the branch obeys the vine then there will be fruit you think.

The Bible says to abide, not to obey.

Abiding is rest not works.

Works only comes by abiding.

Disobedience is a result of not resting.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

You are a worker, not an abider.

Do you know what the Holy Commandment is???







LA

 

[Cross Reference]

Yes if the branch obeys the vine then there will be fruit you think.

The Bible says to abide, not to obey.

Abiding is rest not works.

Works only comes by abiding.

Disobedience is a result of not resting.

Resting is abiding unto good works. Whose? His!

". . . . I live by the Faith OF the Son of God" Gal.20 KJV

Speaks of intimacy to me, per John 17:3. . .

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.


2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

.. . . . N/A