ECT Faith + Obedience = Salvation?

Right Divider · May 4, 2017

turbosixx said:
This is how I understand it. The one in the wilderness was before Jesus' sacrifice and approached God through the blood of animals. The one in Hebrews by Jesus' blood.

Heb. 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,

There is only one church that can approach God by Jesus' blood.

The church in the wilderness was Israel.

The church which is His body is not Israel.

Israel was told to pray for the earthly kingdom come:

Matt 6:10 (AKJV/PCE)

(6:10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.

Paul tells us otherwise:

Col 3:2 (AKJV/PCE)

(3:2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

dodge · May 4, 2017

Right Divider

Paul tells us otherwise:
Col 3:2 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

The Lord's prayer spoke to His will being done on earth as it is in heaven.

Mat 6:10
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Paul spoke of our affections.

(3:2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

You compared apples and tanks.

Right Divider · May 4, 2017

dodge said:
The Lord's prayer spoke to His will being done on earth as it is in heaven.

Mat 6:10
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Paul spoke of our affections.

(3:2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

You compared apples and tanks.

God's will for the earth is in the kingdom of heaven with Christ on the throne of David.

Matt 8:11 (AKJV/PCE)

(8:11) And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

The body of Christ is already seated in heavenly places.

Eph 2:6-7 (AKJV/PCE)

(2:6) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: (2:7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

You are a stubborn and confused religious zealot of the Romans 10:2 variety.

turbosixx · May 4, 2017

Right Divider said:
The church in the wilderness was Israel.

The church which is His body is not Israel.

Israel was told to pray for the earthly kingdom come:
Matt 6:10 (AKJV/PCE)
(6:10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.

Paul tells us otherwise:
Col 3:2 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

I'm trying to understand why you say Hebrews isn't written to the church or BOC. They approach God through Christ.

Lon · May 4, 2017

turbosixx said:
I agree with those scriptures but we need to consider them in the light of others like here.
1 Jn. 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

What is your take on the branch in Christ that is taken away?
Jn. 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

First of all, realize this is a MAD website. I am not, but MAD only take principles and not often direct application from Jesus' words. He was giving Israel a real kingdom offer and thus much of his language must be divided between the kingdom and Judaism from future promise of redemption. While I don't agree on every point with them, I think they have a reason why they do this and it is important discuss with them, from their own understanding of the separation. This too, is why they don't take James, Jude, 1 2 3 John or Hebrews as to gentiles but in the same manner: Principles, but not the direct application. Hebrews 6:4 or 2 Peter doesn't apply to them, by example.

turbosixx said:
Are you saying that as long as you believe, you can live however you want?

Jews could not, because they were Jews. Even becoming Christians, from a MAD perspective (and I share this), Jewish identity was still a God-given dynamic and ethnicity. Why is this important? Because God had made a promise with them for physical things including land and a culture. So if a book such as "Hebrews" is to be understood rightly, it must be seen as written to them. Hebrew 6:4, for example, is a tension between two dynamics, both God-given. They were supposed to sacrifice animals for their sins BUT Hebrews tells them if they do so any more, they are making the Lord Jesus Christ's sacrifice as of nothing. Going to the temple then, would become a rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Hebrews 6:4 by that understanding means that the old covenant was a picture of Christ, so going back to it, would be a rejection of Him. If they did so, they couldn't then be trusting in the old and the new at the same time. Doing so would be 'crucifying Him all over again' by the picture and trust of them sacrificing in the temple.

turbosixx said:
So if someone truly believesi, God want them to live for him but it's not required so they can live however they want. That seem to be the general consensus.

There are a couple of points that must always be separated in our minds or we will never understand MAD or even our own relationship to the Lord Jesus Christ and His saving work. 1) Difference between Jewish Christians and gentile Christians. We don't get special instruction because we didn't receive two God-given dynamics. They did and so had a complicated walk between what was still their Jewish heritage as well as Kingdom expectation that we don't share and cannot have, and their obedience to the gospel vs. their obedience to the OT. Simply, especially for dispensationalists, and then especially MAD, the OT is only directly applicable to Jews. There is a sense that directives can have universal appeal and application, but it must not be an observation of Judaism (Galatians is for gentiles and warns against this). 2) A difference between salvation (of which justification is the concern) and new birth and growth (sanctification). Anybody that is a new creation in Christ, is God's work. He takes ownership of it Ephesians 2:10 All of us that believe this, believe it is God's job to worry about us, being His workmanship. The parable of the unfruitful tree (first is the Gospel, so the principle rather than direct application per say) is not about an unfruitful tree. Rather, I think the parable should be renamed: The persistent and faithful Gardener. The story is about a servant that wants to cut the non-fruiting tree down. The owner says rather "Let me do it. If I can't do it, then you can cut it down." Jews may have seen it as a warning as an unfruitful life. For me, it is about His faithfulness. 2 Timothy 1:12,2:13

turbosixx said:
That's the way I understand it, but you're promoting living how you wish.
Because I love God.
1 Jn. 5: 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Yes, but if we are His workmanship 1) it cannot help but happen 2) By parable, He is patient and the one that causes growth 1 Corinthians 3:7
3) His commandment is that we trust in His Son 1 John 3:23 John says that we love one another and God as well. Romans 13:8 We have to be new creations to be able to do either 4) that MAD believes 1 2 3 John are primarily to Jewish Christians.

I pray I'm of service to you and that some of this makes sense. For me, I memorized 1 John 4:18 I used to read my bible so afraid (Philippians 2:12) but then I read Philippians 2:13 as well. It started me looking through scripture from a different perspective. The Lord God is perfect love. I reasoned that He must therefore drive away all fear. 1 John 4:18 was that clear to me. It was also my first step and I think it needs to be all of our first step in a direction God intends we take. I also think it is a journey through scripture, more for every believer and their God because I had a lot of doubts and questions along the way that only He could answer. If He uses me at all, I'm blessed but have no desire to get in the way of you walking humbly with your God. Micah 6:8 His blessings In Him -Lon

Right Divider · May 4, 2017

turbosixx said:
I'm trying to understand why you say Hebrews isn't written to the church or BOC. They approach God through Christ.

The book to the Hebrews is about their past, present (when it was written) and their future.

If you going to ignore the long history of God with Israel and all of the numerous promises that He made to them, then I don't know what to tell you.

I know that churchianity has explained this all away in various bogus ways, but that doesn't change the fact that God has many promises yet to fulfill to them.

All the world benefits from what God is going to do through Israel, but it's lots more than individual salvation from sin that God is doing in the world.

dodge · May 4, 2017

Right Divider;

You are a stubborn and confused religious zealot of the Romans 10:2 variety.

YOU might want to point that verbal pistol to your temple you do not have a clue of the truth of God's word.

glorydaz · May 5, 2017

dodge said:
YOU might want to point that verbal pistol to your temple you do not have a clue of the truth of God's word.

No, it fits you to a tee. I'm sure the Jews didn't think it applied to them, either. You have great zeal but not according to knowledge. Yes, you think you have knowledge, but you refuse to listen...and, apparently you've refused to listen for years. Your mind is a closed book. :sigh:

Cross Reference · May 5, 2017

Right Divider said:
The church in the wilderness was Israel.

The church which is His body is not Israel.

Israel was told to pray for the earthly kingdom come:
Matt 6:10 (AKJV/PCE)
(6:10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.

Paul tells us otherwise:
Col 3:2 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Ever think that "in the earth" means you?, Me?

2. You also might want to consider that Israel in the wilderness is a prphetic picture of the church.

Cross Reference · May 5, 2017

Cross Reference said:
Nothing to explain. I make every effort at being objective in my replies.

Add Heb. 6:4-7 KJV to it and be further convinced that Hebrews is definitely about "inconsistent/presumptous" Christians.

turbosixx · May 8, 2017

Thanks for your comments and efforts to help me better understand from a different perspective.

Lon said:
He was giving Israel a real kingdom offer

I agree. Jesus was offering a real kingdom and he said it was at hand. Jesus described what the kingdom was like many times. From his descriptions, the kingdom looks like the church and not some physical kingdom. Jesus told Peter he would build his church and give him the keys of the kingdom. On Pentecost, Peter used the keys and let in 3,000. I believe the kingdom God established is the church and its like the original the kingdom God has always wanted for his people. Like the original one before Saul.
1 Sam. 8:7 And the Lord said to Samuel, "Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them.
Paul says we are transferred into the kingdom where we have forgiveness of sins, which is the church.
Col. 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Lon said:
Even becoming Christians, from a MAD perspective (and I share this), Jewish identity was still a God-given dynamic and ethnicity.

I think this is the root of my struggle to understand the mad perspective and your following comments are based on this.
It is my current understanding that once anyone becomes a Christian, they are no longer Jew or Gentile. Here’s why I see it that way.
God set them apart starting with Abraham and the sign of circumcision. Jews are then “born” into the Jewish nation. That’s what made them God’s children because they were born into the nation, are circumcised and have the law. That all changed with Jesus. That’s why John the Baptist told them And do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,' for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.
Jesus told Nicodemus he must be “born again”. Being born into the Jewish nation would not get him into the promised kingdom. He must become a new creature by being born again.

Circumcision and the law have been done away with. 1 Cor. 7:18-19; Eph. 2:15; Rom. 7:6

Paul didn’t put any value on being a physical Israelite and no one was a better Hebrew than Saul.
Phil. 3: 4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ.

In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile.
Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
We know he isn’t talking physical here because men and women, physically speaking, have different roles in the church. I don’t know of any distinction in the church based on anyone being physically a Jew or Gentile. I would be glad to consider any verses that indicate there is.

Lon said:
So if a book such as "Hebrews" is to be understood rightly, it must be seen as written to them. Hebrew 6:4, for example, is a tension between two dynamics, both God-given. They were supposed to sacrifice animals for their sins BUT Hebrews tells them if they do so any more, they are making the Lord Jesus Christ's sacrifice as of nothing. Going to the temple then, would become a rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Hebrews 6:4 by that understanding means that the old covenant was a picture of Christ, so going back to it, would be a rejection of Him. If they did so, they couldn't then be trusting in the old and the new at the same time. Doing so would be 'crucifying Him all over again' by the picture and trust of them sacrificing in the temple.

I agree. Hebrews is written to them and it tells them how the law was a shadow and how Christ is superior in every way. If they seek to be justified by the law and Christ that is wrong. I believe Galatians makes that clear as well. I can somewhat understand their struggle. For over a thousand years they have been taught to follow the law to the best of their abilities. To all of a sudden be told there is a new way to please God would take some time to adjust and fully understand and we are creatures of habit.
Do you believe they have been given the new covenant through Christ?

turbosixx · May 8, 2017

Right Divider said:
The book to the Hebrews is about their past, present (when it was written) and their future.

If you going to ignore the long history of God with Israel and all of the numerous promises that He made to them, then I don't know what to tell you.

I know that churchianity has explained this all away in various bogus ways, but that doesn't change the fact that God has many promises yet to fulfill to them.

This is another thing I don't understand that maybe you could shed some light on. The Jews were looking for the Messiah to set up a physical kingdom. The Messiah tells them it's at hand and he describes the kingdom to them many times. It appears to me he is describing the church. For example: Matt. 13:24-30. Here he says it will not be obvious.
Luk3 17:20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, 21 nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you."

If you know of a passage where he describes a physical kingdom like many are looking for, I would be glad to consider that passage.

Right Divider said:
All the world benefits from what God is going to do through Israel, but it's lots more than individual salvation from sin that God is doing in the world.

I don't know what could be of more benefit than a soul that is saved.
Mark 8:36 For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?

If we love our enemies, do we really have enemies.

Lon · May 8, 2017

turbosixx said:
Thanks for your comments and efforts to help me better understand from a different perspective.

My pleasure.

turbosixx said:
I agree. Jesus was offering a real kingdom and he said it was at hand. Jesus described what the kingdom was like many times. From his descriptions, the kingdom looks like the church and not some physical kingdom. Jesus told Peter he would build his church and give him the keys of the kingdom. On Pentecost, Peter used the keys and let in 3,000. I believe the kingdom God established is the church and its like the original the kingdom God has always wanted for his people. Like the original one before Saul.
1 Sam. 8:7 And the Lord said to Samuel, "Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them.
Paul says we are transferred into the kingdom where we have forgiveness of sins, which is the church.
Col. 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

All Dispensationalists believe God works differently with Israel and gentiles (link will explain that more fully).

turbosixx said:
I think this is the root of my struggle to understand the mad perspective and your following comments are based on this.
It is my current understanding that once anyone becomes a Christian, they are no longer Jew or Gentile. Here’s why I see it that way.
God set them apart starting with Abraham and the sign of circumcision. Jews are then “born” into the Jewish nation. That’s what made them God’s children because they were born into the nation, are circumcised and have the law. That all changed with Jesus. That’s why John the Baptist told them And do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,' for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.
Jesus told Nicodemus he must be “born again”. Being born into the Jewish nation would not get him into the promised kingdom. He must become a new creature by being born again.

Circumcision and the law have been done away with. 1 Cor. 7:18-19; Eph. 2:15; Rom. 7:6

Paul didn’t put any value on being a physical Israelite and no one was a better Hebrew than Saul.
Phil. 3: 4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ.

In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile.
Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
We know he isn’t talking physical here because men and women, physically speaking, have different roles in the church. I don’t know of any distinction in the church based on anyone being physically a Jew or Gentile. I would be glad to consider any verses that indicate there is.

Good counter-points. The way a Jew comes to God in the time of the gentiles, is like you and I. In a nutshell, the difference both 'was' different and specific to them. We agree to an extent such as with Hebrews. And that it will be different again in the future: God isn't done with them, still wants to do something with them. So, they agree that there is presently no distinction, and specifically concerning salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ.

turbosixx said:
I agree. Hebrews is written to them and it tells them how the law was a shadow and how Christ is superior in every way. If they seek to be justified by the law and Christ that is wrong. I believe Galatians makes that clear as well. I can somewhat understand their struggle. For over a thousand years they have been taught to follow the law to the best of their abilities. To all of a sudden be told there is a new way to please God would take some time to adjust and fully understand and we are creatures of habit.
Do you believe they have been given the new covenant through Christ?

Yes, and Dispensationalists do too. -Lon

Lon · May 8, 2017

I was thinking of these scriptures as I've been reading the thread.

It might be better under a title such as "Antinomial"
or "Sola Fide, Sola Gratia Alone, alone-all alone"

It seemed, however, Jerry's Thread covers this.
Galatians 2:21
Romans7:6; 11:6
Romans 8:38,39

Other scriptures? I'd appreciate a bit of scriptural expansion.

Such a conversation might even take some of the heat out of "No One was 'Looking Forward to the Cross" as well, if someone wanted to address this there.

Thanks. -Lon

Patrick Cronin · May 10, 2017

Charles, you state that your views are the Gospel. The gospel is not an opinion, it is utter certainty. You are not putting your faith in the Gospel but your own opinion derived from your understanding of the meaning of Scripture. Millions of Christians, many of towering intellects, have understood the gospel in a way that contradicts Calvinism. You have no basis for saying that your opinion is infallibly certain and the opinions of all the others are false. In any case the Church did not receive the Gospel as the written New Testament, it was written by the Church, that is by those whom Jesus Christ appointed to proclaim the gospel to the world. And it was to them also that He gave the Holy Spirit for the expressed purpose of preserving the truth. "He will bring to your minds everything that I have told you". The Church is therefore the only reliable source of true interpretation of it.

Danoh · May 10, 2017

Lon, you continue to make a poor apologist on behalf of Dispensationalism, bro :chuckle:

It is not your view.

You are looking in, bro.

And not only from the other side of the window, but with commentaries in hand supposedly "about" Dispensationalism and or its' supposed flaws.

Case in point: this link you posted...

Spoiler

Cross Reference · May 10, 2017

Patrick Cronin said:
Charles, you state that your views are the Gospel. The gospel is not an opinion, it is utter certainty. You are not putting your faith in the Gospel but your own opinion derived from your understanding of the meaning of Scripture. Millions of Christians, many of towering intellects, have understood the gospel in a way that contradicts Calvinism. You have no basis for saying that your opinion is infallibly certain and the opinions of all the others are false. In any case the Church did not receive the Gospel as the written New Testament, it was written by the Church, that is by those whom Jesus Christ appointed to proclaim the gospel to the world. And it was to them also that He gave the Holy Spirit for the expressed purpose of preserving the truth. "He will bring to your minds everything that I have told you". The Church is therefore the only reliable source of true interpretation of it.

Hello Patrick and if I may: It seems that God got fed up waiting for the CC to get it right awhile back. Enter Martin Luther and a progressive unveiling of what the gospel is all about. Irrespective of the attacks by Satan, the gospel is still being preached and heard by those God has chosen to handle His glory. . . . . Time is running out that regard as well.

Right Divider · May 10, 2017

turbosixx said:
This is another thing I don't understand that maybe you could shed some light on. The Jews were looking for the Messiah to set up a physical kingdom. The Messiah tells them it's at hand and he describes the kingdom to them many times. It appears to me he is describing the church. For example: Matt. 13:24-30. Here he says it will not be obvious.
Luk3 17:20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, 21 nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you."

If you know of a passage where he describes a physical kingdom like many are looking for, I would be glad to consider that passage.

That passage that you site is completely misunderstood by those that want to make it "just a spiritual kingdom"

The reason that Jesus told them that the kingdom was "in the midst of you" is because HE is the KING of the coming kingdom.

Note that one or two pet verses does NOT cancel ALL of the numerous prophecies regarding the physical kingdom throughout the scriptures of the prophets.

Rev 21:24-26 (AKJV/PCE)

(21:24) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (21:25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. (21:26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

This is just like Isaiah said that it would be:

Isa 60:11-12 (AKJV/PCE)

(60:11) Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that [men] may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and [that] their kings [may be] brought. (60:12) For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, [those] nations shall be utterly wasted.

turbosixx said:
I don't know what could be of more benefit than a soul that is saved.
Mark 8:36 For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?

Once again, you have a very narrow view of ALL that God is doing and will do.

turbosixx said:
If we love our enemies, do we really have enemies.

Cute.

Right Divider · May 10, 2017

Cross Reference said:
Ever think that "in the earth" means you?, Me?

2. You also might want to consider that Israel in the wilderness is a prphetic picture of the church.

:rotfl:

God's Truth · May 10, 2017

Right Divider said:
:rotfl:

Israel is an anti type of Jesus Christ.

Prophetic:
Exodus 4:22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son,

Prophecy fulfilled:
Matthew 2:15
where he stayed until the death of Herod. This fulfilled what the Lord had spoken through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my Son."

Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a youth I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son.

ECT Faith + Obedience = Salvation?

Body part

New member

Body part

New member

Well-known member

Body part

New member

Well-known member

New member

New member

New member

New member

Well-known member

Well-known member

New member

New member

New member

Body part

Body part

New member