Does God have comprehensive free will?

[Letsargue]

The text does not say that the cords were from the temple curtains. What is the basis for your speculation (it is not explicit in the passage).

Christ had the wisdom and authority to rebuke as He did. We can do so in His name, but should be careful not to attack Christians or others out of our misguided flesh.

---Christ was at the Tenple and the temple is hanging with cords, you say he took the cords with him. What are the options and what is the greatest option, I say he took the cord down from the temple. ----- Christ had the anger also.
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[godrulz]

Possible, but still speculative (like other ideas you have).

 

[Sealeaf]

Nonsense said about God, remains nonsense.
God is limited by His intensions. Therefore since He does not intend evil he does not do evil.

 

[koban]

If God did anything now, He would be breaking his own law which would be evil.

OK so far

But if he could write a new law that would allow him to do something, then that would be by law and not evil.

But if He wrote a new law, he would be doing something, and as per your statement above, that would be evil.






Apparently, your theology doesn't allow God to do anything. :freak:




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-----------------Paul---
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[minuteman]

The bible is clear...

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man"

God cannot even be tempted with evil.

"A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit"

Is God good?

"In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, in order that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie..."

"Paul, a bond-servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago"

The bible says that God cannot lie, it is impossible. It has nothing to do with His choice.

"No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God".

The bible says that Jesus could not sin. Unless you think that Jesus was not born of God.

Sozo, the word CANNOT does not always mean inability. In fact, it usually doesn't. For example, I might tell my friend that I CANNOT come for dinner tonight because I caught the flu. I don't mean that I don't have the physical ability to come, but that I have made the decision not to for a particular reason. Lookup the word CANNOT in a concordance and you will see this.

We, of course, know that God CAN be tempted and WAS tempted specifically in the wilderness. In fact the Bible says that Jesus was tempted, just like mankind, in all points yet without sin. When the scriptures say that God cannot be tempted, it means that God refuses to succumb to temptation.

Anywhere the Bible declares God as righteous and good, it assumes His freedom to choose otherwise. That is the nature of moral character. Morality has to do with choices not fixed characteristics of a persons nature. The words goodness and righteousness lose any meaning if they refer to the one and only thing that God can do.

 

[elohiym]

Is God free to do evil?

Can He do evil?

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? Amos 3:6

It's a good question. Here is God's answer:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

We know that God is good, not evil; and we know that God cannot sin. Still, God claims that He creates evil.

So how can God create evil, but not be evil or sin? I think that is a good follow up question.

 

[godrulz]

Sozo, the word CANNOT does not always mean inability. In fact, it usually doesn't. For example, I might tell my friend that I CANNOT come for dinner tonight because I caught the flu. I don't mean that I don't have the physical ability to come, but that I have made the decision not to for a particular reason. Lookup the word CANNOT in a concordance and you will see this.

We, of course, know that God CAN be tempted and WAS tempted specifically in the wilderness. In fact the Bible says that Jesus was tempted, just like mankind, in all points yet without sin. When the scriptures say that God cannot be tempted, it means that God refuses to succumb to temptation.

Anywhere the Bible declares God as righteous and good, it assumes His freedom to choose otherwise. That is the nature of moral character. Morality has to do with choices not fixed characteristics of a persons nature. The words goodness and righteousness lose any meaning if they refer to the one and only thing that God can do.

Does this not also apply to man? I think sozo thinks a Christian cannot sin or give in to temptation. I also do not think we can divorce righteousness from obedient choices in His power based on verses that link the two.

 

[godrulz]

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? Amos 3:6

It's a good question. Here is God's answer:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

We know that God is good, not evil; and we know that God cannot sin. Still, God claims that He creates evil.

So how can God create evil, but not be evil or sin? I think that is a good follow up question.

Check other better translations and the context. This is not talking about moral evil, but natural 'evil' or disasters sent in righteous judgment.

 

[Letsargue]

I do not no any open theist who believes that God does evil or will do evil. The abstract question of whether he could do evil if he wanted to is totally irrelevant because he will never want to do evil.

---Again you don’t know what you’re talking about. --- Evil is contrary to God’s will. – Therefore that CANNOT exist with God, but us. – To question God, is against his will, therefore you do. -- If it is the will of God to Kill someone for touching the Arc, or using strange fire to light a fire, - that’s his will; and not evil. -- If God ((COULD)) go against his own will, it would be EVIL for him to kill a murderer.
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[Frank Ernest]

Check other better translations and the context. This is not talking about moral evil, but natural 'evil' or disasters sent in righteous judgment.

:thumb:

 

[elohiym]

Check other better translations and the context. This is not talking about moral evil, but natural 'evil' or disasters sent in righteous judgment.

God states in context, and properly translated, "I create evil." He doesn't say anything about "moral evil" verses what you call "natural evil."

Instead of claiming it is not properly translated in context, why not explain yourself and offer what you think is a better translation and explain the context? Don't forget to explain the difference between "moral evil" and "natural evil."

God is not evil, and cannot sin, but he creates all evil that exists, as surely as he created the devil. Is there another creator, one that "creates" evil?

Please show me any scripture that supports what you're saying, as I have already offered two scriptures that support my position. One scripture is unambiguous: "I create evil."

 

[godrulz]

God states in context, and properly translated, "I create evil." He doesn't say anything about "moral evil" verses what you call "natural evil."

Instead of claiming it is not properly translated in context, why not explain yourself and offer what you think is a better translation and explain the context? Don't forget to explain the difference between "moral evil" and "natural evil."

God is not evil, and cannot sin, but he creates all evil that exists, as surely as he created the devil. Is there another creator, one that "creates" evil?

Please show me any scripture that supports what you're saying, as I have already offered two scriptures that support my position. One scripture is unambiguous: "I create evil."

God created Lucifer. He did not create the devil. Lucifer became the devil, contrary to God's will and intentions, through volitional pride and misuse of his free will. God is not culpable for this. Likewise, God created creation 'very good'. Man, not God, blew it through the Fall, contrary to His desires, intentions, or will.

Do not impugn God's holy, righteous character with heinous, moral evil.

Just because insurance agencies call natural disasters 'acts of God' does not mean they all are. God, in Jesus, is fundamentally opposed to evil! How can you say that He is the ultimate source or cause of it? Jesus exposed and resisted evil. Jesus is God. He did not affirm it as God's will. Boyd and others have exegeted well to show that these Calvinistic proof texts refer to righteous judgment through disasters, not Hitler's killing Jews. Many translations (clearer than KJV) capture the correct meaning in context.

 

[mtims540]

Any biblical evidence, guys?

As I read over these Scriptures, I think I see a difference between sin or missing the mark and evil or calamity. God is not guilty of missing the mark when He brings calamity, He is perfect in His use of it.

Jos 23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, [that] as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

1Sa 16:15,16, 23 and 18:10 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

Let our lord now command thy servants, [which are] before thee, to seek out a man, [who is] a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.

And it came to pass, when the [evil] spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and [there was] a javelin in Saul's hand.

1Ki 9:9 And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.

2Ki 21:12 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I [am] bringing [such] evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.

2Ch 7:22 And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them.

Neh 13:18 Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Jer 16:10 And it shall come to pass, when thou shalt shew this people all these words, and they shall say unto thee, Wherefore hath the LORD pronounced all this great evil against us? or what [is] our iniquity? or what [is] our sin that we have committed against the LORD our God?

Jer 19:3 And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle.

Jer 19:15 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it, because they have hardened their necks, that they might not hear my words.

Jer 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

Jer 26:13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

Jer 35:17 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.

Jer 39:16 Go and speak to Ebedmelech the Ethiopian, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring my words upon this city for evil, and not for good; and they shall be [accomplished] in that day before thee.

Jer 40:2 And the captain of the guard took Jeremiah, and said unto him, The LORD thy God hath pronounced this evil upon this place.

Jer 42:6 Whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil, we will obey the voice of the LORD our God, to whom we send thee; that it may be well with us, when we obey the voice of the LORD our God.

Jer 44:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah; and, behold, this day they [are] a desolation, and no man dwelleth therein,

Jer 44:11 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will set my face against you for evil, and to cut off all Judah.

Ezekiel - Chapter 7

Dan 9:14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God [is] righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

Joel - Chapter 2

Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not.

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

 

[mtims540]

God created Lucifer. He did not create the devil. Lucifer became the devil, contrary to God's will and intentions, through volitional pride and misuse of his free will. God is not culpable for this.

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

mtims540: In what light am I to understand these Scriptures? :devil:

 

[freelight]

good/evil are relative

good/evil are relative

First, think to even begin delving into that question, you would have to define precisely what good and evil are.

Good and evil are relative descriptions assinged by a judge in a dualistic world-perception. They are comparitive judgments determined by the observer.

Second, you would have to consider that is God becauses his actions adhere to some standard of good which exists apart from Himself, or rather is God in Himself the very definition of good and therefore any action He takes good, because He Himself defines that which is good.

God would have to be the Sole Source and Origin of the good that IS for all that exists: laws, principles, standards originate in and operate from within the Being of God. God IS. In His Is-ness....This Absolute State of divine Being is neither good or bad(apart from our own nominations, judgments)....but includes All That Is....as well as transcends all dualities, relativities that appear in perception. Relationally....we worship God as Ultimate Good....although the phenomena of evil appears in this finite world of dualistic-comparisons. Gods ultimacy as Love and divine Good however triumphs as the infinite end and intention of His creations.

Originally Posted by Sozo

Is God free to do evil?

Can He do evil?

Can Love do evil? Is Love capable of evil? What appears as 'evil' to our perception-judgments are our own referentials. In a world where free will liberties are allowed(at any measure) and other anomolies associated with an imperfect creation exists...there is bound to be what some would call 'evil'(by relative perception) - we may speculate at this comparitive judgment as well as accept the mystery of evil or iniquity native to our own mortal-predicament. But if God is wholly 'good' then evil cannot exist in Him but if we keep assigning God as 'good' as compared to evil....we will always seem to have 'evil' to contend with/explain.....instead of seeing God as above any dualities as the Sole non-dual Being that He IS as the Absolute, the All, the One, the Totality. - this State of 'God' is undifferentiated, unconditional, undivided, whole, only. There is only God as the substrate of Existence Itself - this Reality is beyond explanation, articulation or words. What IS is....and all things are unfolding following the course of their own being/nature at any given time.

Love is only capable of Love because it is its own essence and cannot be what it is not. - all its actions would be true to its nature - which in this case speaking of Deity would be Absolute. It is only appearnce/value-judgment/opinion/perception that God would also create evil or that humans by virtue of free will are able to create evil. If God is not capable of doing evil because we have assumed his absolute goodness...then where does evil come from and why does it appear to exist? (if God is only capable of divine goodness and Love...then all that is not of God...is not divine, real, substancial or eternal - hence why some schools see evil as illusory - some may object in that all around they see evil and suffering....however if we stay true to God as the Only Presence and Power of Reality Existing...then evil doesnt really have any divine or real existence...even if some souls are apparently suffering from evil - further research allows us to delve deeper into the metaphysics and ontology of evil.)

As I surrender to the ONE.....I am wholly confident and sheltered in divine Love and goodness. Any evil that appears is only an apearrance/deviation/imperfection/anomoly somehow allowed in the relative world of perception....however still the Ultimacy of divine Love and goodness remains.






paul

 

[minuteman]

So, I guess freelight is a pantheist?

 

[freelight]

exposing evil

exposing evil

So, I guess freelight is a pantheist?

Hi mm,

In certain dimensions I hold to a pan-theo-cosmology - all really depends on our understanding/knowledge/perception of 'God' first...for God is the First and Original Intelligence, the primordial Ground of Being, the substrate of Existence Itself. God is the Sole Context of All That Is.....for nothing exists outside of the All. (therefore 'good' and 'evil' are only relative perceptions within the Whole).

Leaning more towards a traditional purivew....I probably subscribe to a more pan-en-theist view. Pan-en-theism being a view allowing a more recognized distinction between Creator and creation - all things existing 'in'(en) God as opposed to a more strict view of God being the Universe or everything being God.(pure pantheism). Also lets realize there are views within these schools which share slightly differing inflections - whenever a school holds some form of omni-hood of God...there are bound to be dimensional variations per school. 'All' is all-encompassing!

Where theology lacks concerning the question and mystery of 'evil'...philosophy, metaphysics, psychology and science may assist towards forming a more wholistic theory.(for an integrative View). - all schools of knowledge must be applied besides the light of revelation. So our investigation into evil itself is essential here. A beginning question to open up serious discussion might be...."What is evil"? Then we can go from there.




paul

 

[godrulz]

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

mtims540: In what light am I to understand these Scriptures? :devil:

Not the absolute beginning when God created him as a perfect, lofty angel. From the beginning of creation or ages ago when he has been the deceiver. He may have falled soon after he was created. It is an expression or idiom, not a wooden literalism. Jesus was referring to Satan (who has been such from the beginning of man's history), not to Lucifer in his original state as an archangel of God. Other verses show that he has not always been the devil, but because such. The same is true of demons. They were once good angels who became evil following in Satan's footsteps. God did not create demons. They because such when they rebelled against great light.

 

[Frank Ernest]

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Murderer from the beginning. That would be Cain. Jesus was identifying those He was speaking to as descendants of Cain.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:9-10 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

mtims540: In what light am I to understand these Scriptures? :devil:

See above.

 

[mtims540]

Other verses show that he has not always been the devil, but because such. The same is true of demons. They were once good angels who became evil following in Satan's footsteps. God did not create demons. They because such when they rebelled against great light.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Isa 14:11-14 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

. . . He was a murderer from the beginning and has always hated the truth. There is no truth in him . . .
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

. . . he was a man-slayer from the beginning, and in the truth he hath not stood, because there is no truth in him . . .
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

"Moreover the word of the LORD came to me: Mortal, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, carnelian, chrysolite, and moonstone, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; and worked in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from among the stones of fire. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade, you profaned your sanctuaries. So I brought out fire from within you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever" (Ezekiel 28:11-19, NIV).