popsthebuilder
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GOD's mercy isn't from man changing GOD's Will, it from men abiding by it.
Peace
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Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Peace
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God can change His Will
popsthebuilder
New member
Yes...it is explained as a new creation but also wholly of GOD. That is to say; utterly of One accord, that accord and harmony with the Will of GOD.
What you said in general is about where I'm at with it too. But I think that at this time, as Christians, it is our duty to bring as many to faith in GOD as we possibly can, in good conscience, not saving them from destruction, but explaining the option and truth of salvation that is the way; the teachings, example, and self sacrifice of the Christ. We are to do these things utterly selflessly, not for reward of any sort but for the sake of all, by the will of GOD.
Surely if we do not abide; HE will make a new creation that will. And ultimately we cannot detour the Will of GOD.
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popsthebuilder
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popsthebuilder
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Surely if HE so chose. But why?
if you think GOD changes HIS will for us as opposed to our understanding changing, then I would have to disagree.
Do you presume that not only the Bible, but other sacred texts are all wrong? And if so, then can you justifiably this claim?
The needs of man may change. The understanding of man may change. Times may change. The will of GOD is infallible, and as such; without change. Indeed GOD is benevolent, longsuffering, and ever merciful, and indeed we are to reciprocate these traits we have faith in.
Praise and thanks is to Jesus the Christ, the Way and Light of GOD.
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Repent or spend eternity is the Just God's Hell.
Saying it doesn't make it so, Nang. Both AMR's post and mine are still there for everyone to read. I quoted him directly and applied his own words to the accomplishments of Jeffery Dahmer.
Oh yes, I have! Many times! I argued him into silence so many times it was getting boring. He was so poor at defending his beliefs that I believed for some time that he had to simply be lying about being a professor of anything. It seems too easy a claim to verify for it to be something someone would make up on an internet forum. That's the only reason I suspect that he actually was employed by some school somewhere. God help his students!
You just keep on saying this and then I prove that I do in fact know precisely what I'm talking about and then you disappear for a while.
And "guessing" is, more or less, a figure of speech. No one has to guess. We all know what he believes. He worships the same non-existence idol that you do.
Just how many doctrines do you believe that the bible directly contradicts, anyway? Why do you even own a bible in the first place?
Proverbs 6: 16 These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.
Luke 12: 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.
Luke 12: 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
According to you and AMR, mankind's sin was God's will! According to you, your god predestined the whole mess and will punish people for the sin that He predestined that they commit except for the relative handful of lucky winners of the cosmic lotto who got arbitrarily chosen by your god for forgiveness for no reason at all.
It is your god I blame, not mine, not the actual God. It is your idol that is unjust, not the Creator who became flesh and died for me that I might live if I put my faith in His finished work, which I have done.
You believe that your idol decreed the fate of everyone and everything.
This is not what your doctrine teaches. Your doctrine does not teach that your idol created the world in spite of of his foreknoweldge but that his foreknowledge is a result of his infallible, unchangable decree! Things are not the way they are in spite of your idol but because of him!
That is what Calvinism teaches. Go ahead and deny it. Give me a reason to quote some Calvinists on the issue.
You don't even believe that your god had to sacrifice anything. That also was part of god arbitrary will. He could just as easily have decided to blow his holy nose and allowed the sacred snot to atone for the sins of the elect.
You worship an unjust idol that does not exist. There is but one God and one God only. He is actually just and MUST act accordingly. Any so called god that acts unjustly is an idol that is no more real than Quetzalcoatl".
Resting in Him,
Clete
Nang
TOL Subscriber
When a tiny religious group decide to deny the biblical attributes of God . . one knows who is in error.
. . . The tiny religious group.
Who think they can and should defy historical Christianity, that has ALWAYS declared God to be Immutable according to God's own revelation of Himself in Holy Scripture.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Not.
For some reason you fail to distinguish between God's righteous will and the sinful actions of His creatures.
It was within God's decrees to bring redemption, grace, and everlasting mercy to sinners, who did not obey His will.
According to your (faulty) logic and skewed misconceptions .. God should have never created in the first place; knowing He was not creating clones or gods like Himself.
If that were true, you would have no being or existence at all and neither would the rest of humanity. Is that an intelligent and loving view to hold?
No, this is YOUR view . . not mine, nor the view of any Reformer. :duh:
Yep, and you are anti-Christ to so believe.
Wrong. Dead wrong.
All of God's decrees are the result of His holy attributes, sovereign will and good purposes. Not vice versa.
You provide evidence of why I discern you are an anti-Christ. Your own gross words condemn you as such.
Brother Ducky
New member
Those who oppose Calvinism seem to have much more interest in him than I do. So who is this person?
Brother Ducky
New member
Rosenritter
New member
Can you tell me what post 643 is trying to say? I'm having some trouble deciphering its grammar.
Rosenritter
New member
I was specifically thinking of Servetus.
musterion
Well-known member
Your apostle.
popsthebuilder
New member
I was just saying that the mercy of GOD isn't the effect of the misdirection of man, but part of GOD's Will. An ever giving will.
Peace
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Brother Ducky
New member
Was not Servetus an heretic? And was not heresy a capital crime in Geneva at the time?
If you wish to argue that heresy should not be a crime, or that if a crime, one not deserving of a death sentence, that would be OK. But to argue that the legal punishment of a crime is the same as murder seems to be a bit much.
Brother Ducky
New member
Can't say that I would agree with that assessment. Decidedly important to reformed thought. Hardly the only one. And hardly one that most Calvinists read.
I certainly would not make the point that whoever first came up with the belief that for today only the words of Paul have any importance is the apostle of whatever the movement wants to be called.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Indeed . .
In the days of Calvin, the State ruled over the Church, and heresy was punishable with death according to State jurisdiction.
Servetus was warned by Calvin and the church of his extreme error, but there was little the Christians could do since Servetus remained unrepentant.
What?
That's my line!
You and AMR and the rest of Calvinism says that the sinful actions of mankind are all ordained by you god such that they cannot do otherwise, not me!
The fact that the things men do are not God's will is precisely what makes the actions sinful! It is acting against God's will that defines what sin is!
It was within you god's decree that those who did not obey his will would not do so!
Everything is within your god's decree! Every single thing that happens, no matter how big, small, good or bad it is. As AMR said, if it is accomplished it was you god's will or else it would not have been accomplished.
This might be the stupidest thing you've ever said in your entire life. Congratulations.
Nang, you need to go take your medication. I am not the Calvinist here, you are. I don't believe that God predestined anyone to sin, I do not believe that God arbitrarily chose those that he predestined for salvation or that he predestined anyone for salvation at all, for that matter. I believe that those who sin do so not because God had anything to do with it but because they chose to do so and could have chosen not to and that their punishment is just and that they therefore need a savior which has been made available and is theirs for the asking.
If you god is real, then I was predestined to be so and frankly wouldn't want to be anything else.
I just love love love it when you contradict me! You are defending the Arminian view of Predestination! :ROTFL:
"Even if it were granted that ‘foreknew’ means the foresight of faith, the biblical doctrine of sovereign election is not thereby eliminated or disproven. For it is certainly true that God foresees faith; He foresees all that comes to pass. The question would then simply be: whence proceeds this faith, which God foresees? And the only biblical answer is that the faith which God foresees is the faith He himself creates. Hence His eternal foresight of faith is preconditioned by His decree to generate this faith in those whom He foresees as believing." - John Murray
"God did not elect us because he fore knew, but the truth is he fore knew because he elected us. First God chooses, that is, he unconditionally sets his favor on whom he will, then destines them for their glorious role in eternity." - FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD By Nick Bibile
"God’s calling is according to His purpose not His foreknowledge." - Dr. Nelson L. Price
“But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)
"God did not elect us because he fore knew, but the truth is he fore knew because he elected us. First God chooses, that is, he unconditionally sets his favor on whom he will, then destines them for their glorious role in eternity." - FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD By Nick Bibile
"God’s calling is according to His purpose not His foreknowledge." - Dr. Nelson L. Price
“But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)
NOT according to YOUR own doctrine!
“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)
“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)
“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)
I am, precise as your god wants me to be, according to your own beliefs and I could NOT be otherwise even if I wanted to be.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Nang
TOL Subscriber
You are arguing against fatalism, not Calvinism. You are not factoring in that Reformers believe in secondary causes and/or moral human responsibility/accountability . . which is a big piece of the puzzle you attempt to figure out.
The spiritual principle you are omitting, and which real Calvinists teach, is Genesis 50:20 and Romans 8:28.
Man only falls short; God always works good.
That is the substance of God's decrees, as well as the reality of human history.