Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[reyjun moncada]

Calvinists also believe that one must first be "Regenerated" before they can receive saving faith. That's the proverbial, "Cart before the horse" explanation.

..life, birth and the growing stage in spiritual is the chronologically right...a seed cannot become a tree unless it is sown first..yours is the truly cart before the horse..

 

[reyjun moncada]

The question is too vague. Do you mean ultimately or do you mean ever?

All power belongs to God and any power that others have has been delegated to them by God and can be recalled by Him at will. That single issue alone would make it impossible for God to be ultimately defeated but that doesn't mean that God always gets what He wants. The bible teaches this clearly...

Isaiah 5:3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.​

That's just two examples. There are many others.
Incidentally, in the Luke 7 verse, the word translated "will" is boulḗ. It is the strongest word in Greek for "will". It is the same word as is used in Acts 4:27-28, for example.

Resting in Him,
Clete

such a poor understanding about God..your God is failure god..cannot do and performs things unless it is agreed by man..what kind of God you have.?so you mean you need to overthrown Dan.4:35,psalm115:3, and romans 9:19 "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?""

you know clete you have no idea about revealed will and secret will of God deut.29:29..failure always comes from men but not in God..if men wills not to believe it doesn't mean that God fails but it is in accordance to His will, His secret will 2thess.2:11-12...human will cannot overthrew or change the plan of God Eph1:11.

 

[musterion]

such a poor understanding about God..your God is failure god..cannot do and performs things unless it is agreed by man..what kind of God do you have?

Silence, prattler. You're the one bowed before a lying idol.

You can't have the reprobates (those HE chose not to make into believers) 100% responsible for their inability to believe and be saved, and the elect (those HE chose to make into believers, per TULIP) 100% not responsible for their saving faith.

No two ways about this. According to TULIP, the will and choice of God determined the fates of ALL -- saved and lost -- before creation.

 

[popsthebuilder]

First I offer the disclaimer that I am not sure what you perceive as the difference between Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, and Universalism. That said, I'll do my best to explain. I was weighing your reaction against a related topic.

Most Calvinists that I have met (or read) are staunch defenders of Eternal Conscious Torment. I have met the one or two that uphold the literal destruction of the wicked to ashes, which does lessen the whole injustice angle that this thread is discussing, because at least then God shows man the same consideration as every other created creature, the mercy inherent in death. God created cattle with no other options than to graze and live and die, but he does not torture 90% of the cattle over a never-ending barbecue because He chose to be offended by the way He made them.

Now with the disclaimer that I consider Calvinism to be a massive twisting of the scripture and against the whole gospel, I think that if it was followed consistently that it would lead to Universalism... or perhaps as you would say, Universal Restoration. It does clearly say that God is willing that all men should repent and come to a knowledge of the truth, that God is not willing that any should perish, but all should come to eternal life, that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. If Calvinism is true and God can and will make anything and everything happen as he prefers best, then the only logical outcome for the Calvinist is that of Universal Restoration. God wants all to be saved. Ergo, all will be saved. So the consistent Calvinist becomes a believer in Universal Restoration.

However, I have also noticed in my observation of Universalist forums that pretty much all of them seem to embrace the denial of free will aspect that (to me) defines Calvinism. I think that the Universalist has no other option, because if God did create man with free will, then that free will (by definition) could be used to reject his creator. The Universalist says that no one can for ever reject the Creator, so therefore free will must be an illusion. So the philosophical Univeralist must essentially adopt Calvinism and the denial of free will.

As to which is the cause and which is the effect, I suppose it depends on the person. So I was wondering as to your personal experience and perspective, which element was the foundation and which was built on top of the other. The application would be as follows: assuming your faith was biblical, would biblical evidence against Universal Reconciliation leave your Calvinism intact? Or what if the hypothetical situation were reversed, and you were persuaded that not all things were yet determined... would this still allow for faith in Universal Reconciliation?

Like I said earlier, even if I do not agree I at least appreciate your consistency.

Thank you for your response.

The fact that there is no such thing as chance, for me personally, is utter truth.

My faith was not initially derived from scripture of any religion.

However; with that being said, universal reconciliation has been, thus far, verified by all scriptures I have read.

For me, one isn't built upon the other exactly, but both do work together.

As far as the will of man is concerned; I've been doing a little research and find the term free will to be not very accurate. This is verified by the fact that though I know of the direction I should go, and the reasons/ benefits of said direction, I can't, by my own will, steer myself in that direction. People with strong addictions most often continue in that addiction even after realizing it is wholly negative. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not certain if people have a technical free will... Will... Yes, utterly free will.... Maybe not.

Strictly scripturally speaking; both the concept that all is ordained, and the concept that all will ultimately return to GOD are represented equally.

As far as eternal torment is concerned;
It is my belief that the word hell in the bible is a misrepresentation, and generally speaking, hell is equal to utter and final destruction, and not eternal torture. The destruction is eternal, yet doesn't equate to infinite torture for finite crimes. One cannot justifiably state that GOD is both benevolent, and tortures souls for eternity.

It is also written that hell is for a term, and that all will be changed including earth and heaven and hell. After the judgement there will be no heaven or earth or hell. There will be GOD, and the Will of GOD. Whatever new creation GOD forms will come forth as well, but that is neither here nor there as it will be wholly of GOD.

Hope that helps, sorry if it didn't. Please feel free to ask anything and I will gladly answer what I can.

I wish you the best,

Peace

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[Clete]

You merely attempt to blame God for the sins of reprobates.

Not wise . . .

Their evil deeds are the natural consequence of their cursed condition.

I am blaming God for nothing.

Are you saying that you disagree with AMR? I used his own words, Nang.

AMR said, "The plain facts are that if it is not accomplished, then God did not will it to be so.", which is direct and complete agreement with Calvin when he said, “The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service”.

I simply applied AMR's own logic to what someone we all acknowledge as evil accomplished to see if he would be consistent. AMR got tired of getting crushed to powder in these debates and won't engage them against me and so we are left to guess at his answer.

Are you consistent, Nang? Will you agree with AMR and Calvin and openly admit that you believe that Jeffery Dahmer's homosexual cannibalism was your god's will, the proof of which is that it happened? Or do you lack the courage of your own convictions?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

such a poor understanding about God..your God is failure god..cannot do and performs things unless it is agreed by man..what kind of God you have.?so you mean you need to overthrown Dan.4:35,psalm115:3, and romans 9:19 "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?""

you know clete you have no idea about revealed will and secret will of God deut.29:29..failure always comes from men but not in God..if men wills not to believe it doesn't mean that God fails but it is in accordance to His will, His secret will 2thess.2:11-12...human will cannot overthrew or change the plan of God Eph1:11.

There is nothing but double talk in this rambling and unresponsive post.

If you're doctrine is right then every word I type on this website was predestined by your unjust god an eternity before time began and there's not one thing I can do differently.

IF you want to debate me, then do so. Respond to the arguments made and keep your pagan opinions to yourself. I couldn't care less what you think. I'm only interested in what you can directly refute of what I've said or what you can make a rationally sound, affirmative argument for.

Be warned. I will not pull punches. It is my life's duty to put all Calvinists to shame. It will be my goal to crush you and your unjust idol into powder and embarass you for believing in it if I can. What I will not do is waste my time with people who are incapable of making an argument or having a two way conversation.


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[popsthebuilder]

I am blaming God for nothing.

Are you saying that you disagree with AMR? I used his own words, Nang.

AMR said, "The plain facts are that if it is not accomplished, then God did not will it to be so.", which is direct and complete agreement with Calvin when he said, “The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service”.

I simply applied AMR's own logic to what someone we all acknowledge as evil accomplished to see if he would be consistent. AMR got tired of getting crushed to powder in these debates and won't engage them against me and so we are left to guess at his answer.

Are you consistent, Nang? Will you agree with AMR and Calvin and openly admit that you believe that Jeffery Dahmer's homosexual cannibalism was your god's will, the proof of which is that it happened? Or do you lack the courage of your own convictions?

Resting in Him,
Clete

There is the Will of GOD and the will of man or the opposer. Though man can walk abject to the Will of GOD, ultimately he cannot affect the Will of GOD.

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

 

[TulipBee]

There is the Will of GOD and the will of man or the opposer. Though man can walk abject to the Will of GOD, ultimately he cannot affect the Will of GOD.

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

gods will effects mans will

 

[Rosenritter]

Thank you for your response.

The fact that there is no such thing as chance, for me personally, is utter truth.

My faith was not initially derived from scripture of any religion.

However; with that being said, universal reconciliation has been, thus far, verified by all scriptures I have read.

For me, one isn't built upon the other exactly, but both do work together.

As far as the will of man is concerned; I've been doing a little research and find the term free will to be not very accurate. This is verified by the fact that though I know of the direction I should go, and the reasons/ benefits of said direction, I can't, by my own will, steer myself in that direction. People with strong addictions most often continue in that addiction even after realizing it is wholly negative. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not certain if people have a technical free will... Will... Yes, utterly free will.... Maybe not.

Strictly scripturally speaking; both the concept that all is ordained, and the concept that all will ultimately return to GOD are represented equally.

As far as eternal torment is concerned;
It is my belief that the word hell in the bible is a misrepresentation, and generally speaking, hell is equal to utter and final destruction, and not eternal torture. The destruction is eternal, yet doesn't equate to infinite torture for finite crimes. One cannot justifiably state that GOD is both benevolent, and tortures souls for eternity.

It is also written that hell is for a term, and that all will be changed including earth and heaven and hell. After the judgement there will be no heaven or earth or hell. There will be GOD, and the Will of GOD. Whatever new creation GOD forms will come forth as well, but that is neither here nor there as it will be wholly of GOD.

Hope that helps, sorry if it didn't. Please feel free to ask anything and I will gladly answer what I can.

I wish you the best,

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

I am a little confused by your explanation. You said you believed in Universal Reconciliation, and I assumed you meant it in the commonly used Universalist sense. I believe in Universal Reconciliation, but I don't use those words aloud because it would be misinterpreted. That is, I believe that every knee shall knowingly and willingly bow and recognize the Lord Jesus Christ, but the method by which this is accomplished is by the utter destruction of all that will not. In other words, Universal Reconciliation by the Annihilation of the Wicked. All that can be reconciled will be reconciled. That's what I would mean if I were to say I believed in Universal Reconciliation. I'm not sure what you mean by it.

Rev 21:1-3 KJV
(1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
(2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
(3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

As for there being no more heavens and earth after the judgment, aren't we told something else however? A "new heaven and new earth" would preclude there being "no heaven" and "no earth" wouldn't it?

 

[Rosenritter]

There is the Will of GOD and the will of man or the opposer. Though man can walk abject to the Will of GOD, ultimately he cannot affect the Will of GOD.

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

* If man cannot affect the will of God, then why did Abraham bargain with God about the fate of Sodom?

* If man cannot affect the will of God, then why did Moses attempt to persuade God to spare Israel from utter destruction, even bargaining his own life? And why did God do something different than what he first told Moses he would do?

* If man cannot affect the will of God, then how come God cut his punishment short when David repented of his casting of the census over Israel?

* If man cannot affect the will of God, then how come God spared Nineveh when they repented at the preaching of Jonah, after he had already said, "Forty days and this city shall be destroyed?"

* If man cannot affect the will of God, then why did Jesus instruct us to pray?

 

[Robert Pate]

* If man cannot affect the will of God, then why did Abraham bargain with God about the fate of Sodom?

* If man cannot affect the will of God, then why did Moses attempt to persuade God to spare Israel from utter destruction, even bargaining his own life? And why did God do something different than what he first told Moses he would do?

* If man cannot affect the will of God, then how come God cut his punishment short when David repented of his casting of the census over Israel?

* If man cannot affect the will of God, then how come God spared Nineveh when they repented at the preaching of Jonah, after he had already said, "Forty days and this city shall be destroyed?"

* If man cannot affect the will of God, then why did Jesus instruct us to pray?

Good post. Man is not a robot and neither is God.

 

[TulipBee]

 

[Nang]

I am blaming God for nothing.

Are you saying that you disagree with AMR? I used his own words, Nang.

AMR said, "The plain facts are that if it is not accomplished, then God did not will it to be so.", which is direct and complete agreement with Calvin when he said, “The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service”.

I agree with AMR and Calvin.

I simply applied AMR's own logic to what someone we all acknowledge as evil accomplished to see if he would be consistent.

No . . you wrongly apply your own (faulty) logic to discussions that is based on your own (faulty) misguided understanding of the doctrines.

AMR got tired of getting crushed to powder in these debates and won't engage them against me and so we are left to guess at his answer.

You have never come close to "crushing AMR to powder", and the only reason you are left to guess, is because you do not actually know or comprehend the doctrines we Reformers hold.

Are you consistent, Nang? Will you agree with AMR and Calvin and openly admit that you believe that Jeffery Dahmer's homosexual cannibalism was your god's will, the proof of which is that it happened? Or do you lack the courage of your own convictions?

All sin is as horrible as Dahmer's acts . . sin does not come in degrees or in any nice version, at all. All sin deserves nothing less than death. Mankind's sins brings evil consequences into the world, which God will destroy in His wrath against all wicked and sinful men.

But you have no faith in that, but would rather blame God or find fault with God, and take the side of unrepentant reprobates, claiming God has dealt unfairly with them.

Reformers believe that God decreed the fate of all SINNERS. God knew that all created mankind would fall short of His glory, and fail to live up to His moral standards (LAW), but He created them anyway, and ordained to save many purely by His grace through the sacrifice of His only begotten Son.

You are studying and wallowing in the dark side of mankind, rather than seeking to praise the goodness, grace, mercies, and light (wisdom) of God.

 

[Robert Pate]

All men that can hear and believe the Gospel can be saved, even those that crucified Christ, Acts 2:23 also Acts 2:36.

8,000 Christ rejecting Jews heard Peter's Gospel and were converted to Christ, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4.

 

[Nang]

* If man cannot affect the will of God, then why did Abraham bargain with God about the fate of Sodom?

* If man cannot affect the will of God, then why did Moses attempt to persuade God to spare Israel from utter destruction, even bargaining his own life? And why did God do something different than what he first told Moses he would do?

* If man cannot affect the will of God, then how come God cut his punishment short when David repented of his casting of the census over Israel?

* If man cannot affect the will of God, then how come God spared Nineveh when they repented at the preaching of Jonah, after he had already said, "Forty days and this city shall be destroyed?"

* If man cannot affect the will of God, then why did Jesus instruct us to pray?

The privilege of prayer is not given so that we can attempt to change the will of God.

The privilege of prayer is given to Christians so that they can align their will with the will of God.

Jesus Christ gave us the best teaching and examples of this. See Matthew 6:9-14, 26:39; Luke 22:42

 

[Tambora]

* If man cannot affect the will of God, then why did Abraham bargain with God about the fate of Sodom?

* If man cannot affect the will of God, then why did Moses attempt to persuade God to spare Israel from utter destruction, even bargaining his own life? And why did God do something different than what he first told Moses he would do?

* If man cannot affect the will of God, then how come God cut his punishment short when David repented of his casting of the census over Israel?

* If man cannot affect the will of God, then how come God spared Nineveh when they repented at the preaching of Jonah, after he had already said, "Forty days and this city shall be destroyed?"

* If man cannot affect the will of God, then why did Jesus instruct us to pray?

:thumb:
None of them were Calvinist.

 

[Tambora]

Be warned. I will not pull punches. It is my life's duty to put all Calvinists to shame. It will be my goal to crush you and your unjust idol into powder and embarass you for believing in it if I can.

Ride 'em cowboy!

 

[Clete]

There is the Will of GOD and the will of man or the opposer. Though man can walk abject to the Will of GOD, ultimately he cannot affect the Will of GOD.

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

Why do people bother posting stuff like this?

Saying it doesn't make it so, pb! Make an argument - if you can.

 

[patrick jane]

Reformers believe that God decreed the fate of all SINNERS. God knew that all created mankind would fall short of His glory, and fail to live up to His moral standards (LAW), but He created them anyway, and ordained to save many purely by His grace through the sacrifice of His only begotten Son.

But only for people like you, huh.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Why do people bother posting stuff like this?

Saying it doesn't make it so, pb! Make an argument - if you can.

Make a valid argument... Well... How bout the fact that what I said is verified in all scripture of the faithful to GOD that I have read thus far....is that a valid argument? Not that I wish to argue so much as have profitable discussion.

Peace

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