YOU mean pre-programming certain ones from eternity past to believe when He zaps them, while leaving the rest disabled BUT THEN blaming them for not believing? No, I don't believe that. Nor should you.
What about all the testimonies of 1000s upon 1000s of unbelievers who receive miracles and interventions that are attributed to God?
YOU mean pre-programming certain ones from eternity past to believe when He zaps them, while leaving the rest disabled BUT THEN blaming them for not believing? No, I don't believe that. Nor should you.
Many unbelievers attribute healing to God but are not believers in Jesus Christ. Many unbelievers pray to God for healing or to save their lives. As often as unbelievers get miracles, so do believers. As many as unbelievers do not get miracles, so do believers not receive theirs. Where does healing/miracles/interventions come from for unbelievers?
Many unbelievers attribute healing to God but are not believers in Jesus Christ. Many unbelievers pray to God for healing or to save their lives. As often as unbelievers get miracles, so do believers. As many as unbelievers do not get miracles, so do believers not receive theirs. Where does healing/miracles/interventions come from for unbelievers?
Are you laughing because unbelievers receive miracles and interventions from God?
I think 9/11 is a good example. Many made it out, many did not. Some instances that people survived were just plain miraculous. Were they all believers who survived? Were they all unbelievers who died? How about the 200 who threw themselves out of the windows of the towers? How about the 184 who died at the Pentagon and the 44 who died on flight 93? Let's hear your wisdom on all that, please.
Miracles in the New Testament had a purpose. They were also referred to as "signs". A sign points to something other than itself. The miracles Jesus and his disciples used had the purpose of proving Christ's teachings to be from God, and the prove He was who he said he was. As Nicodemus said, "We know that you are come from God, for no man can do these things except God be with him." Miracles were used in the infancy of the church to facilitate it's beginning. The bible says God "set" some in the church as teachers, elders, etc. They were given abilities without the need for study, such as on the day in Acts 2 where the apostles spoke in languages they had never studied. Later in the NT, we see the age of miracles waning as the word of God became complete. Paul says he left Trophimus at Miletum sick. If healing were so prevalent, why didn't Paul just heal his friend? Paul also instructs Timothy to drink a little wine mingled with his water for his stomach and "oft infirmities". Again, same question. The purpose of miracles has been fulfilled and we have them in abundance in Scripture to read and believe from.
But you can't refute the fact that God does as He wills, always.
People die tweety. People die
Are you laughing because unbelievers receive miracles and interventions from God?
I think 9/11 is a good example. Many made it out, many did not. Some instances that people survived were just plain miraculous. Were they all believers who survived? Were they all unbelievers who died? How about the 200 who threw themselves out of the windows of the towers? How about the 184 who died at the Pentagon and the 44 who died on flight 93? Let's hear your wisdom on all that, please.
I don't think that is a supernatural occurrence. It just links back in time to Adam an Eve. God created them with the ability to reproduce, that creation was the miracle. You having a baby I wouldn't call a miracle, because you were made to have one. Miracles are something that shouldn't have happened, something that is not natural.
But I do know mothers love newborns enough to forget their labor pains. Kids are a blessing to their parents, don't get me wrong.
My friend just told me that on his way driving to church today, he was almost hit 5 times. He told me those were miracles, and each accident he's avoided was a miracle. But he mentions his friend who died at the age of 21, by a car going out of control. He tells me that God was behind it or "it was my friends time to go".
Now there is no way you can convince me that this logic is true. If someone enough poison, they will die. If someone pulls the trigger at another person, that person will get shot, or die. God gave us free will, and just like he gave Adam the free will to choose to disobey, he allows people to sin and hurt others.
God can, but,
God will not stop someone from flying a plane into the world trade center.
He will not stop your son from killing himself.
He will not stop a thief from pulling the trigger on a loved one.
Why do people think God was the one who did the miracle, when they don't even know why he did it?
Why do miracles always have a good outcome? Maybe humans get lucky and call the happenings a miracle when it was just LUCK!
2 Christians driving on the road. They collide their cars on accident. One survives the car crash and the other doesn't. Is it a miracle? Why would God save one and let the other die?
It makes no sense!!
I don't think that is a supernatural occurrence. It just links back in time to Adam an Eve. God created them with the ability to reproduce, that creation was the miracle. You having a baby I wouldn't call a miracle, because you were made to have one. Miracles are something that shouldn't have happened, something that is not natural.
But I do know mothers love newborns enough to forget their labor pains. Kids are a blessing to their parents, don't get me wrong.
My friend just told me that on his way driving to church today, he was almost hit 5 times. He told me those were miracles, and each accident he's avoided was a miracle. But he mentions his friend who died at the age of 21, by a car going out of control. He tells me that God was behind it or "it was my friends time to go".
Now there is no way you can convince me that this logic is true. If someone enough poison, they will die. If someone pulls the trigger at another person, that person will get shot, or die. God gave us free will, and just like he gave Adam the free will to choose to disobey, he allows people to sin and hurt others.
God can, but,
God will not stop someone from flying a plane into the world trade center.
He will not stop your son from killing himself.
He will not stop a thief from pulling the trigger on a loved one.
Why do people think God was the one who did the miracle, when they don't even know why he did it?
Why do miracles always have a good outcome? Maybe humans get lucky and call the happenings a miracle when it was just LUCK!
2 Christians driving on the road. They collide their cars on accident. One survives the car crash and the other doesn't. Is it a miracle? Why would God save one and let the other die?
It makes no sense!!
Your kind of thinking, Hikaru; is exactly what got me thinking on what the answer might be, many...years ago.
So I began to examine what I believed about such things and the origin of my beliefs.
And I began to ask others various questions listen carefully as they related one account or another to me; looking for recurrent themes and patterns.
And I found I had only thought that I believed that God is now working in the inward man through His Word.
I found I did not actually believe that.
This really threw me.
That what I thought I believed was not what I actually believed.
I found I was not walking by faith, but by sight.
Where you explain an external event to yourself as "this must be the Spirit's leading" or "must be God's doing" or what have you, but never take into account all those times you have concluded that in that way only to later find you were dead wrong.
I began to pay more attention to the words, phrasing, and explanation lingo common among many a Believer when describing such things...
Just looking for recurrent themes and patterns for what such might point back to as one image as to the origin of such explanations by Believers.
What I found is that there are far more Charisamtics out there than most are even aware of.
The whole thing is a kind of a - put on a blindfold, spin around three times, and then go and attempt to pin the tail on the donkey, and where you end up "must be God's will" - kind of a thing.
The following comes to mind...
1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
In other words, those pagan idols had no ability of their own, rather; said Gentiles were carried away by their own notions about them just by that - by their own notions about them.
Superstitious nonsense on their part.
Consider what the religious (superstitious) make of the following, for example...
Habakkuk 2:18 What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols? 2:19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it. 2:20 But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.
And what did the cult that is the RCC (but also; just about every Believer one encounters) make of that last passage?
Buildings considered "holy...o God is present..."
I still recall an assembly I visited - a Mid-Acts one at that - we Mads are supposed to know better.
After the service; some children were being what even the Lord Himself paused during His ministry to enjoy the delight of - children being children.
So there the little tykes were, running around in that assembly hall; squealing in delight to high Heaven like they so preciously do.
I'm standing there talking to the Pastor when some old Believer walks up, apparantly upset.
"Pastor," they exclaim, exasperated, "the children are playing in the sanctuary!!!"
"You're the sanctuary," the Pastor quietly replied.
At which point, the following came to my mind....
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
For that Believer's superstion about "the sanctuary" being the assembly hall was right then and there proven "of what sort it is" - the assertion they identified themselves with "destroyed" or exposed on the spot as the error that it had been all along.
Of course, superstition being what it is, said Believer was not too happy with that Pastor's simple "word of truth" to them that day.
But that is what 2 Tim. 3:16-17 "All Scripture is given by inspiration" for - "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction" in short "for instruction in rightousness" etc.
Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
(Of course, the consistent Madist will know right off, just why I did not quote the earlier part of Ephesians 4).
To the chagrin of...the superstition of many.
These issues - actually a Dispensational issue - need a nice long, Mid-Acts Based (Dispensational, not just "Scriptural) study on them.
A forum thread being simply inadequate to the task.
Wow, what a mouthfull, Danoh!
Would you mind giving me a definition of superstition?
I've asked my mom quite a few times what her definition of it was but it was hard to get an answer.
Sooner or later I got a reply, "people seeing a black cat and thinking bad luck will come their way".
I would call that superstition too, but the point I was trying to make was that people need to know what superstition is, before they can claim they're "not being superstitious".
My mom hesitated for a long time before answering that question.
My definition of superstition is when people see like, lighting hit a house of believers and attribute it to God punishing them because of some sin.
I think it is following the lines of idolatry, when you make God something more than he's not.
I would like your input Danoh's and anyone else who has the time.
I will probably stop debating with my mother, but as long as I have friends with the same beliefs then I'll be a happy man! xD
Anything this side of "that which is perfect" that depends on external circumstance in any way, shape, or form as a gage of "God at work."
A question: You walk into a bar to ask if you can use their restroom. You happen to spot someone you shared the gospel of Christ with; who trusted Christ.
They are drunk as a skunk.
Are they a Believer, or not?
Your answer depends on whether you walk by faith in an inteligent understanding of God's Word as to passages like the following...
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The fact that you saw them ("by sight") obviously not walking in the intent verse 10 talks about, is no external proof, one way or the other, that they are lost or saved.
Scripture often addresses the need for the Believer to overcome his or her old ways by the Spirit - simply because Believers do face these kinds of obstacles - and not necessarily because they are not Believers.
The Corinthians being a prime example of members of the Body of Christ whom the "walk...by sight" wisdom of this world would so called "discern" the Corinthians had to have been lost.
Well, it is this same kind of "walk...by sight" most rely on for their so called means of "discerning" whether said individual is saved or lost, that most rely on for their so called "discernment" that "God was behind" this or that external event.
Believers - people one would think would know better.
Fact of the matter.
Too many a Believer assert a faith that is actually not faith at all.
That is actually the old pagan practice of empiricism - of walking by sight.
But because it to is a faith; too many conclude that makes it sound.
I still recall the many lessons I learned from an incident with a simple woman from a small village in an underdeveloped country.
Her baby looked over at me and just stared at me. Amused, I stared back at it; as I thought on the fascinating tribal clothing it was dressed in.
Caught up in the moment; I realized I had stared to long - a serious faux pas, in some cultures.
Too late! Next thing I knew; its' mom was all over me in a serious panic insisting I make a sign of cross on its forehead, that her child might be released of whaever curse I might have put on it.
I mean, the poor woman was beside herself.
I obliged her, her walk by external circumstance superstition.
At the same time, I found myself deeply moved by this great concern only a mother can have for her child.
I learned a great deal that day.
More than I'd bargained for.
About the power of faith, even the faith of superstition.
Thus, its hold on those either unwilling, or clueless as to how to examine such things in oneself...
Mostly, though, I was reminded of the power of a mom's love.
Next time you are with your mom, do yourself a favor that will forever stay with you.
Just pause a moment...
Look over at her and marvel at her; this amazing woman who carried you in her womb all those months, who joyed in loving you her every waking hour, before you were even born.
Who constantly thought about you and what you would be like.
Who joyed like no one else ever will again, the day you were born.
And who loved you even more "by sight" now...her "baby..." and all that means to a mom...
Just look over at her, and love her that way.
The way she loved you...without condition.
This will ever remain with you.
This "miracle" God set in motion so long, long ago, in that garden.
From those two...to you two.
The best towards you...and that extraordinary woman...your mom.
Miracles in the New Testament had a purpose. They were also referred to as "signs". A sign points to something other than itself. The miracles Jesus and his disciples used had the purpose of proving Christ's teachings to be from God, and the prove He was who he said he was. As Nicodemus said, "We know that you are come from God, for no man can do these things except God be with him." Miracles were used in the infancy of the church to facilitate it's beginning. The bible says God "set" some in the church as teachers, elders, etc. They were given abilities without the need for study, such as on the day in Acts 2 where the apostles spoke in languages they had never studied. Later in the NT, we see the age of miracles waning as the word of God became complete. Paul says he left Trophimus at Miletum sick. If healing were so prevalent, why didn't Paul just heal his friend? Paul also instructs Timothy to drink a little wine mingled with his water for his stomach and "oft infirmities". Again, same question. The purpose of miracles has been fulfilled and we have them in abundance in Scripture to read and believe from.
God miraculously heals people every day. He also intervenes miraculously in people's lives every day. People are also believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ every day - through the resurrection power of God in Christ. Now that is a miracle!!!
Which does not defend the theory that believers get favor from God just because they believe. Believers and unbelievers both died in the tragic event and both believers and unbelievers were spared.
I don't think that is a supernatural occurrence. It just links back in time to Adam an Eve. God created them with the ability to reproduce, that creation was the miracle. You having a baby I wouldn't call a miracle, because you were made to have one. Miracles are something that shouldn't have happened, something that is not natural.
But I do know mothers love newborns enough to forget their labor pains. Kids are a blessing to their parents, don't get me wrong.
My friend just told me that on his way driving to church today, he was almost hit 5 times. He told me those were miracles, and each accident he's avoided was a miracle. But he mentions his friend who died at the age of 21, by a car going out of control. He tells me that God was behind it or "it was my friends time to go".
Now there is no way you can convince me that this logic is true. If someone enough poison, they will die. If someone pulls the trigger at another person, that person will get shot, or die. God gave us free will, and just like he gave Adam the free will to choose to disobey, he allows people to sin and hurt others.
God can, but,
God will not stop someone from flying a plane into the world trade center.
He will not stop your son from killing himself.
He will not stop a thief from pulling the trigger on a loved one.
Why do people think God was the one who did the miracle, when they don't even know why he did it?
Why do miracles always have a good outcome? Maybe humans get lucky and call the happenings a miracle when it was just LUCK!
2 Christians driving on the road. They collide their cars on accident. One survives the car crash and the other doesn't. Is it a miracle? Why would God save one and let the other die?
It makes no sense!!
Miracles happen because of the will and plan of God, not because of luck. God did not stop the planes from flying into the towers, but He also intervened and some were saved. God will stop someone from killing themselves if it is His will. Maybe people are saved from suicide because He intervened through someone. People can survive from a trigger being pulled. Guns jam, bullets miss, bullets can do damage that can be medially treated, and sometimes people die, but not always.
There was an accident that occurred a number of years ago. A van full of young people were heading to Christian gathering and the van was hit and rolled over. Many kids died. There were two girls, best friends - one survived, one died. The surviving one was mistaken for the girl who died. Because of the severity of the wounds, she was unconscious for a few days and then was unable to speak. Finally, the truth came out. The parents who thought they lost their daughter did not - you can imagine the joy. The parents who thought their daughter was alive, was dead. Imagine the pain and sorrow. Yet, they gave praise to God, because He knows best. A miracle for only one of them. That was God's plan.
TweetyBird, your blaming God then for each incident whether good or bad.
Your saying God decided to let those people die in 9/11 but saved the people who didn't?
How about all the rapes of little children and then the rapists kill them when their finished?
Do you know about Samantha Runnion? She was raped and killed.
God did not want her to be raped, and killed. That was not part of Gods plan. God does not authorize evil.
When you guys say, "It was God's plan, or it was his will", you instantly blame God for every wicked act that has happened. Claiming that God allowed some people to be raped and killed, and saved others from not being killed. There is no way around this one.
If your mother died tomorrow in a tragic accident, and you attributed this to God, saying: It was her time Lord, if you will it so be it. He would be angry at you for blaming him.
God does not want people to die, but the reason why there is evil in this world, is because he loves us.
God gave Adam free will to choose to eat the fruit, which is the only way to show true love. By giving Adam a way to sin. So just like he gave Adam free will, and he gave Adam his life, to do what he wants with it, people today can do what they want with their lives. They can do evil, or they can do good.
If a thief came to rob a store and pulled the trigger on the clerk, the clerk will 90% of the time get shot and die.
Now you say there are times where the gun jams or the bullet doesn't kill the person.
This happens all the time. People's guns jam at home or at gun ranges. People shoot others and they survive. If you say God is the one that jams guns and lets people survive shots, then you blame him for every other person he "didn't save".
Where was God as to His perspective towards ALL on 911?
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Miracles happen because of the will and plan of God, not because of luck. God did not stop the planes from flying into the towers, but He also intervened and some were saved. God will stop someone from killing themselves if it is His will. Maybe people are saved from suicide because He intervened through someone. People can survive from a trigger being pulled. Guns jam, bullets miss, bullets can do damage that can be medially treated, and sometimes people die, but not always.
There was an accident that occurred a number of years ago. A van full of young people were heading to Christian gathering and the van was hit and rolled over. Many kids died. There were two girls, best friends - one survived, one died. The surviving one was mistaken for the girl who died. Because of the severity of the wounds, she was unconscious for a few days and then was unable to speak. Finally, the truth came out. The parents who thought they lost their daughter did not - you can imagine the joy. The parents who thought their daughter was alive, was dead. Imagine the pain and sorrow. Yet, they gave praise to God, because He knows best. A miracle for only one of them. That was God's plan.
Your version of God is one cruel being - to subject people to such horrors just to call them home. What foolishness.
As a result "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you" and yours in your nonsense before a world in need of concrete answers over this pagan superstition of yours.
Roman Catholic works based pergatory on the spot nonsense is what that is.
It sounds all 'o the Lord works in mysterious ways..." wonderful.
But what it is, is plain old, wisdom of this world, we are clueless, but this sounds good...superstitious nonsense.
On the other hand, the Bible student will conclude that God was fully satisfied when Paul put his pen down - with the arrival of that which is perfect - the Word filled full with the full revelation of the Mystery...in written form.
