Did God Raise Jesus From The Dead Or Did Jesus Christ Raise Himself?

[marhig]

I think you may have misspoken there accidentally. For where did any Jewish leader claim that Jesus was God?

If we read the passage you quoted above more closely, it isn't the Jewish leaders that are claiming that Jesus is God. They want to stone Him to death because He claims to be God ("thou...makest thyself God").

They are accusing Him of claiming to be God. And so they want to kill Him.

And how did He claim to be God? By saying that "I and my Father are one" in verse 30.

But Bard, how is saying that I and the father are one in verse 30 claiming to be God? Look at this in John 17

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

And then further down the chapter,


17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

As Jesus prays to God, he asks him for his disciples to be as one as they are, also saying that he prays not only for them, but all those who believe in their words. So once we are born of God, we are one with God and Christ, but that doesn't make us God! But sons and daughters of God like the following.

2 Corinthians 6

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Jesus also said, my brothers sisters and mother are those who do the will of my father in heaven. And he calls the disciples his brethren, he sees us as brothers and sisters and God as his father and his God. So that make God the Father over all, and Paul said that the head of Christ is God. And Christ is also in subjection and he came here because the Father sent him to bare witness to the truth and Christ Jesus obeyed that commandment. He said, I have a commandment of my father, so as I hear I do. So if the Father commanded him and he obeyed, then the Father is his God.

He is claiming to be God, according to Jewish thought, so He must be killed.

Claiming to be the Son of God is to claim to be equal to God which is to claim to be God, in Jewish thought.

More evidence of this can be seen in John 5:17-18: "But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."

Clearly, the Jewish leaders want to see Jesus dead because He is claiming to be equal with God which means He is claiming to be God.

Claiming to be the Son of God is to claim to be God. That's why they wanted Him dead.

If you do not deny that Jesus is the Son of God, why do you deny that He has the same nature as His Father?

We have to remember that Jesus is one person with two natures, a divine nature because He is God's Son...and human nature because He freely chose to condescend Himself and take on flesh.

When Jesus speaks and acts, depending on the context of the situation, He sometimes is speaking from His humanity (that's why He can hunger, thirst, be exhausted, etc....even though God cannot do those things)...and other times from His divinity....(that's why He feels free to do whatever He chooses on the Sabbath and forgives men's sins which only God can do...etc.).

When Jesus says "God is my God" He is speaking from His humanity.

Jesus clearly claimed to be God and the Jews wanted Him dead for it.

Do you think He was lying?

Do you think He was crazy?

What do you think about Jesus' claims to divinity?

We know what the Jewish leaders thought about it.

They killed Him for that.

Sorry Bard, but how is saying that you are a son of God making yourself as God? Are you not a Son of God? I believe that I'm a daughter of God but I'm not God. It says in the Bible that God will bring many sons to glory. The difference between us and Jesus Christ is that, we are here because we've sinned, and we have to believe, repent and turn from sin, and then once we receive the Holy Spirit, we are then born of God. But Jesus became sin for us, he who knew no sin. He was sinless came into this sinful flesh to bare witness to the truth and save as many as would believe in him and reconcile them to God, he saved and healed. He didn't have to repent, because he had never sinned, and he had God's spirit from the womb. He was not of this world, and Satan couldn't touch him, and because he had never sinned, Satan had nothing in him, but he does with us, as we are sinners and we sin always. But through faith and through Christ, by the spirit, we be given the power to overcome, as Christ was. When Jesus prayed, he said to the Father, you have given me power over all flesh.

Jesus said that he was sent to do the works of his father and obey his commandments. He was sent into this world to bare witness to the truth and overcome Satan, and the world, and show us the true way back to God, he was our perfect example. He is the way, the truth and the life. And if we believe in him we will turn from sin, turn from this world, and obey the living God, and do his will, then through Christ, we will be strengthened by the Holy Spirit to do overcome.

There is no name higher than Jesus Christ in heaven, he is over all of us, he is our Lord, but this is because God has given him that authority, and he has set him over all, and set him at his right hand. But to me there is only one God Almighty, and that's the Father, who is also the God as father of Jesus Christ.

I'd never say Jesus was a liar, he only spoke the truth, and I would never say he was crazy. And he didn't claim to be God, but the Son of God. And he was in the full power of the Holy Spirit, because he denied all flesh and didn't sin, and because of this he was in the express image of God bodily, and by this he was Emmanuel, God with us. And it says in the Bible, that God was in him reconciling the world unto himself. And when we are born of God, then God is in us too, And Christ is made manifest within our hearts, then through us by the power of the spirit, Christ in us will do his work and reconcile as many to God that believe in him and are willing to do God's will.

By the way, Jesus also called God his God whilst he was in heaven, in Revelation 3

Revelation 3

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Yeah. You are right. I tend to use those terms interchangeably. As synonyms.



Unbelief that Christ died? No. I believe that Jesus Christ died. Remembering it especially today on Good Friday.

And I don't believe in Spiritism which, unless I am mistaken, is basically reincarnation but in human form only.

God is the God of the living. Of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (even though they died).

And Jesus even talked to Moses during His Transfiguration even though Moses had died.

How is that possible?

Because death is the separation of the human body from the soul/spirit and the soul/spirit lives on.

Death is not a ceasing to exist entirely as in a complete obliteration.

Are you conscious when you sleep?

LA

 

[keypurr]

Get past the titles and names keypurr.

I have.

A son has the same essence as his father.

The type of being that a Father is, is the type of being that his son is.

The type of being that a human father is, is the type of being that the human son is.

The type of being that God is, is the type of being that God's Son is.

See? It isn't about names and titles.

My point still remains valid.

Father's and son's aren't clones. Where did that come from?

Ok, now the Father is a spirit, can you see a spirit?
What does that make his son?

The son is a spirit also, not a man.

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[marhig]

Ok, now the Father is a spirit, can you see a spirit?
What does that make his son?

The son is a spirit also, not a man.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app

Hi keypurr, I agree that Christ is Spirit in heaven, but do you believe that he came here as a man? And that he was human as we are, as it does say this in the Bible?

 

[keypurr]

Hi keypurr, I agree that Christ is Spirit in heaven, but do you believe that he came here as a man? And that he was human as we are, as it does say this in the Bible?

I see the true son as a spirit being, like his Father. I believe that he was sent to dwell in the body God prepared for him, Jesus. God created everything through this spirit son for he gave this son his fullness. The Universe was not created by a man. This son is the express image of the Father. Heb 1:3.

That is an outline of my thoughts friend. There is only one true God, the Father.


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[Stevo1]

I agree.

But Jesus was more than just another prophet who obeyed God.

Which other prophets are we told that "the fulness of God dwells in Him?"

And which other prophets were "Emmanuel" God with us?

And which other prophets were given a name above all other names?

And the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is not just another prophet. Like in Hebrews Chapter 1 for example.

It says that "God used to talk to people through the prophets...but now He talks to by His Son through whom everything was created."

We can't say that about any other prophets


According to John 1, Jesus existed prior to creation. The other prophets didn't..

Yes Jesus was more than a prophet because he never sinned yet he was still a prophet.
Mark 6:4
But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

The spirit goes on forever so as for the creation i was not there then, so i could not comment about things that are not written or for me to know but i do know Elijah was in John and am sure that spirit comes back in people today. Just as Christ? is in people today.

The Son is called God in Hebrews 1:8: "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."[quote/]

Hebrews 1:9
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
You left out the next verse.

Angels are told to worship Him in Hebrews 1:6: "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

Now, God forbids idolatry. Worshipping of something as divine if it isn't.

Yet here, the Bible says angels worship the first begotten of God.

That is God allowing idolatry to occur....UNLESS...God's only Begotten Son is God.

Which He is.

So God is not guilty of commanding idolatry.



Jesus claimed to be God. That is the reason why the Jewish leaders wanted Him killed.

Do you think He was lying?

Or do you think He was crazy?

Or what?

Peace.

Can you show me please in the bible were Jesus tells us he is God.



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[Tambora]

Good stuff, Bard!
:thumb:

I think you may have misspoken there accidentally. For where did any Jewish leader claim that Jesus was God?



If we read the passage you quoted above more closely, it isn't the Jewish leaders that are claiming that Jesus is God. They want to stone Him to death because He claims to be God ("thou...makest thyself God").

They are accusing Him of claiming to be God. And so they want to kill Him.

And how did He claim to be God? By saying that "I and my Father are one" in verse 30.

He is claiming to be God, according to Jewish thought, so He must be killed.



Claiming to be the Son of God is to claim to be equal to God which is to claim to be God, in Jewish thought.

More evidence of this can be seen in John 5:17-18: "But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."

Clearly, the Jewish leaders want to see Jesus dead because He is claiming to be equal with God which means He is claiming to be God.



Claiming to be the Son of God is to claim to be God. That's why they wanted Him dead.



If you do not deny that Jesus is the Son of God, why do you deny that He has the same nature as His Father?



We have to remember that Jesus is one person with two natures, a divine nature because He is God's Son...and human nature because He freely chose to condescend Himself and take on flesh.

When Jesus speaks and acts, depending on the context of the situation, He sometimes is speaking from His humanity (that's why He can hunger, thirst, be exhausted, etc....even though God cannot do those things)...and other times from His divinity....(that's why He feels free to do whatever He chooses on the Sabbath and forgives men's sins which only God can do...etc.).

When Jesus says "God is my God" He is speaking from His humanity.

Jesus clearly claimed to be God and the Jews wanted Him dead for it.

Do you think He was lying?

Do you think He was crazy?

What do you think about Jesus' claims to divinity?

We know what the Jewish leaders thought about it.

They killed Him for that.

I agree.

But Jesus was more than just another prophet who obeyed God.

Which other prophets are we told that "the fulness of God dwells in Him?"

And which other prophets were "Emmanuel" God with us?

And which other prophets were given a name above all other names?

And the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is not just another prophet. Like in Hebrews Chapter 1 for example.

It says that "God used to talk to people through the prophets...but now He talks to by His Son through whom everything was created."

We can't say that about any other prophets.



According to John 1, Jesus existed prior to creation. The other prophets didn't.

The Son is called God in Hebrews 1:8: "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

Angels are told to worship Him in Hebrews 1:6: "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

Now, God forbids idolatry. Worshipping of something as divine if it isn't.

Yet here, the Bible says angels worship the first begotten of God.

That is God allowing idolatry to occur....UNLESS...God's only Begotten Son is God.

Which He is.

So God is not guilty of commanding idolatry.



Jesus claimed to be God. That is the reason why the Jewish leaders wanted Him killed.

Do you think He was lying?

Or do you think He was crazy?

Or what?

Peace.

 

[keypurr]

The express image of God in Heb 1 is proof that the true son is a spirit being. Only one man was given this power on Earth. I see this spirit as the logos. Jesus was the body God prepared for his logos, Christ.
There is only one true supreme God, the Father. The express image was given the fullness of his creator, he/it is a creature. The firstborn of all creatures. Give it a study friend and see what you come up with.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

But Bard, how is saying that I and the father are one in verse 30 claiming to be God? Look at this in John 17

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

And then further down the chapter,


17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

As Jesus prays to God, he asks him for his disciples to be as one as they are, also saying that he prays not only for them, but all those who believe in their words. So once we are born of God, we are one with God and Christ, but that doesn't make us God! But sons and daughters of God like the following.

2 Corinthians 6

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Jesus also said, my brothers sisters and mother are those who do the will of my father in heaven. And he calls the disciples his brethren, he sees us as brothers and sisters and God as his father and his God. So that make God the Father over all, and Paul said that the head of Christ is God. And Christ is also in subjection and he came here because the Father sent him to bare witness to the truth and Christ Jesus obeyed that commandment. He said, I have a commandment of my father, so as I hear I do. So if the Father commanded him and he obeyed, then the Father is his God.



Sorry Bard, but how is saying that you are a son of God making yourself as God? Are you not a Son of God? I believe that I'm a daughter of God but I'm not God. It says in the Bible that God will bring many sons to glory. The difference between us and Jesus Christ is that, we are here because we've sinned, and we have to believe, repent and turn from sin, and then once we receive the Holy Spirit, we are then born of God. But Jesus became sin for us, he who knew no sin. He was sinless came into this sinful flesh to bare witness to the truth and save as many as would believe in him and reconcile them to God, he saved and healed. He didn't have to repent, because he had never sinned, and he had God's spirit from the womb. He was not of this world, and Satan couldn't touch him, and because he had never sinned, Satan had nothing in him, but he does with us, as we are sinners and we sin always. But through faith and through Christ, by the spirit, we be given the power to overcome, as Christ was. When Jesus prayed, he said to the Father, you have given me power over all flesh.

Jesus said that he was sent to do the works of his father and obey his commandments. He was sent into this world to bare witness to the truth and overcome Satan, and the world, and show us the true way back to God, he was our perfect example. He is the way, the truth and the life. And if we believe in him we will turn from sin, turn from this world, and obey the living God, and do his will, then through Christ, we will be strengthened by the Holy Spirit to do overcome.

There is no name higher than Jesus Christ in heaven, he is over all of us, he is our Lord, but this is because God has given him that authority, and he has set him over all, and set him at his right hand. But to me there is only one God Almighty, and that's the Father, who is also the God as father of Jesus Christ.

I'd never say Jesus was a liar, he only spoke the truth, and I would never say he was crazy. And he didn't claim to be God, but the Son of God. And he was in the full power of the Holy Spirit, because he denied all flesh and didn't sin, and because of this he was in the express image of God bodily, and by this he was Emmanuel, God with us. And it says in the Bible, that God was in him reconciling the world unto himself. And when we are born of God, then God is in us too, And Christ is made manifest within our hearts, then through us by the power of the spirit, Christ in us will do his work and reconcile as many to God that believe in him and are willing to do God's will.

By the way, Jesus also called God his God whilst he was in heaven, in Revelation 3

Revelation 3

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Hi marhig,

Great post and I want to take the time to read it and respond but I can't right now.

Been burning the midnight oil and I can't keep up.

Peace to you.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Ok, now the Father is a spirit, can you see a spirit?
What does that make his son?

The son is a spirit also, not a man.

Right. I agree. The Son was pure spirit just like the Father. John 1 talks about that.

However, at the Incarnation, the Son willingly humbled himself and took on human flesh to save us.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Yes Jesus was more than a prophet because he never sinned yet he was still a prophet.
Mark 6:4
But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

The spirit goes on forever so as for the creation i was not there then, so i could not comment about things that are not written or for me to know but i do know Elijah was in John and am sure that spirit comes back in people today. Just as Christ? is in people today.

The Son is called God in Hebrews 1:8: "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."[quote/]

Hebrews 1:9
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
You left out the next verse.



Can you show me please in the bible were Jesus tells us he is God.

Sure. But I don't have time tonight. And we need to remember that to best understand the Bible we have to try to read it through 1st century Jewish eyes....not 21st century non-Jewish eyes.

While I am finding that info., would you please tell me why the Jewish leaders wanted to kill Jesus?

What crime did He commit? What was He guilty of?

They sure were emphatic about killing Him. What did He do that upset them so much?

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

The express image of God in Heb 1 is proof that the true son is a spirit being. Only one man was given this power on Earth. I see this spirit as the logos. Jesus was the body God prepared for his logos, Christ.
There is only one true supreme God, the Father. The express image was given the fullness of his creator, he/it is a creature. The firstborn of all creatures. Give it a study friend and see what you come up with.

John 1:1-3 says: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

If "through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made"...then He Himself cannot be something that was made.

He cannot be a created being because He cannot create Himself.

That is a logical impossibility.

So He is an uncreated being...and that is God.

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Are you conscious when you sleep?

LA

No. And what is your point?

 

[God's Truth]

No. And what is your point?

We are not unconscious when we sleep.

 

[Nihilo]

We [are] not unconscious when we sleep.

Oh my goodness you're right! Sleep is a different state of consciousness, not unconsciousness, which would be blacking out with no memory. :thumb:

 

[God's Truth]

Oh my goodness you're right! Sleep is a different state of consciousness, not unconsciousness, which would be blacking out with no memory. :thumb:

I am glad we have something to agree about.

 

[keypurr]

John 1:1-3 says: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

If "through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made"...then He Himself cannot be something that was made.

He cannot be a created being because He cannot create Himself.

That is a logical impossibility.

So He is an uncreated being...and that is God.

Peace.

He is the exact IMAGE of his creator.
The first of all creatures.
Heb 1:3, Col 1:15. God created all through him.
He was given the fullness of the Father.
He/it is a spiritual being, not a man.
He is a created form of God. Phil 2

Can you name ANY IMAGE that is not created?

This powerful Son dwelled in the body God provided for it in Heb 10:5. That body is Jesus.

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[Stevo1]

Yes Jesus was more than a prophet because he never sinned yet he was still a prophet.
Mark 6:4
But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

The spirit goes on forever so as for the creation i was not there then, so i could not comment about things that are not written or for me to know but i do know Elijah was in John and am sure that spirit comes back in people today. Just as Christ? is in people today.




Sure. But I don't have time tonight. And we need to remember that to best understand the Bible we have to try to read it through 1st century Jewish eyes....not 21st century non-Jewish eyes.

While I am finding that info., would you please tell me why the Jewish leaders wanted to kill Jesus?

What crime did He commit? What was He guilty of?

They sure were emphatic about killing Him. What did He do that upset them so much?

Peace.

Hi Bard the Bowman

This my answer to your question.

Galatians 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 5:20
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

These are the reasons the Jewish leaders put Jesus to death there hearts were not right they knew the truth but they knew also they would have to lose there life to obey it. The easiest way to do this would be to get rid of Jesus and take away there conscience but the word of God never dies it will go on and on and on through more generation passed our generation but right now it is are generation and we are responsible for our action once we know the truth.

We can crucify Jesus in our own hearts all over again if we don't truly believe in him and his life.
They that believe with there mouths but don't truly live it will not enter into the kingdom of God.

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[Jamie Gigliotti]

John 10:18 KJV -

Sorry if I'm restating another's point. If so, great if others agree.


We have this physical universe in which God manifested himself as Christ in this physical material world, born of the virgin Mary. When Jesus died, He said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” (Luke 23:46) Jesus' spirit did not cease to exist. He was alive in the transcendental spiritual world, a world we can not see, but it is much more real than this one. Because of the spiritual oneness of Christ with Our Father in sense he raised his "glorified body" as Paul put it. But Jesus continually said He was doing His Fathers will. Scripture seems to point in my mind of the decisions being made by the Father, so in sense He raised Jesus.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Can you show me please in the bible were Jesus tells us he is God.

Hey Stevo,

We won’t find anywhere that Jesus comes straight out and announces “Hey everyone, I am God” like many people in the 21st century Western World would like to hear.

But He did make the claim to be God and the Bible shows us that that is exactly what His first century Jewish audience heard.

There isn’t room to address all of the verses and I have a problem with being concise as it is so how about we just look at a couple?

1.Jesus’ claim that God was His Father was seen as Jesus claiming to be equal to God which means He was claiming to be God.

John 5:18 makes that obvious : “Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His Father making Himself equal with God.”

John 10:33 says something similar: “The Jews answered him saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.”

The Jewish leaders wanted Jesus dead because He thought He was equal to God.

The questions we have to ask, I think, are:

Was He God?

If He wasn't, was He lying or was He crazy?

What do you think?