Did God Raise Jesus From The Dead Or Did Jesus Christ Raise Himself?

keypurr

keypurr

Well-known member
jamie said:
That's like saying the son of the father is not the father.

There is only one president at a time so the son of the president is not the president by definition.

:duh:
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Not really, it is saying the Son of the King is not the King.
The Son is a Prince, not a King.

There is only one God, and the Son has a God.
A God that sent him to save us.
A God he prays to.
He went to HIS and OUR God.


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jamie

jamie

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keypurr said:
Not really, it is saying the Son of the King is not the King.
The Son is a Prince, not a King.
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The Father is not the King, Jesus is.

The Father is never pictured in scripture as sitting on a white horse.
 
B

Bard_the_Bowman

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marhig said:
Christ came into this sinful flesh, he who knew no sin to bare witness to the truth, this is what Jesus Christ says he was born and came into this world for. And he was fathered of God in the womb, he had the spirit of God always with him, and it says in the Bible that Jesus waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him. We have sinned and that's why we have to turn from sin and obey God and once we receive the spirit, we are born of God.
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Ok, I guess.

And you are wrong regarding our change of nature, because once we are born of God, then the Holy Spirit should be changing our hearts to be more like that of Christ, and our nature should be changing to be more like that of God and Christ. And the works of our flesh should be dying, and the fruits of the Spirit should be seen more and more in our lives as the seed of Christ grows within and we should become more like him, as Paul said, not me but Christ in me.
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No, I don't think I am wrong about the change of nature.

I think that you and I are using a different definition for the term "nature".

I am meaning "what something is". As in, we are human beings, we have always been human beings, we will always be human beings. That is our nature.

What you are describing above with our change of hearts and becoming more like Christ is all true.

But that doesn't make us "not humans". It makes us better, more perfected humans. But we always remain human.

To change our human nature would mean that what was once human is no longer human because it has become something else.
 
marhig

marhig

Well-known member
Bard_the_Bowman said:
Ok, I guess.



No, I don't think I am wrong about the change of nature.

I think that you and I are using a different definition for the term "nature".

I am meaning "what something is". As in, we are human beings, we have always been human beings, we will always be human beings. That is our nature.

What you are describing above with our change of hearts and becoming more like Christ is all true.

But that doesn't make us "not humans". It makes us better, more perfected humans. But we always remain human.

To change our human nature would mean that what was once human is no longer human because it has become something else.
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Hi Bard, Jesus had a human nature too, he had a will, that he denied to do Gods will, it says in the Bible that he was tempted in all points as we are. He was human too like we are he couldn't be tempted if he didn't have a human nature. Also, he would have had an advantage over us, he couldn't come here and tell is to turn from sin, deny ourselves, bare our cross and follow him if he couldn't sin, because he wouldn't have had a human nature like us, so how can he come here, unable to sin, and tell us to follow him, he had to be like us to do this. and he couldn't have overcome Satan and expect us to do the same if he didn't have to go through what we do. And this is why he is our perfect example, because he could sin, but he didn't, not once, Satan did everything he could to try to get him to, but he didn't and in doing so he overcame his evil with good, it says in the Bible that he began to do and teach, he didn't just teach the gospel, he lived by it himself too, and his way is the way to follow.

He is the way, the truth and the life. And he said have no fear, for I have overcome the world. And he will help those who truly repent and turn from this world of sin, willing to become living sacrifices, to lay down their lives and do the will of God, to do the same.

And to do this, is to be willing to die the death, willing to let our old life go, and do the will of God and truly follow Jesus. And when God is ready, he will bless us with his Spirit and teach and guide us everyday in our hearts and minds, and once we are born of God, then the life of Christ will be made manifest in our hearts by the spirit and we too will then bare witness to the truth.

Having a changed heart and a nature more like Christ, full of love, compassion and forgiveness toward others, and bring the love and the word of God to others with the hope that they will want to hear and believe and let Christ in us do his work, and reconcile as many to God as possible through us.

We are to love our God with with all our hearts and minds, soul and strength, and our neighbours as ourselves, and lay down our lives for others and do his will, and if we truly love him, we will. And to do this is to truly follow Jesus Christ.
 
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jamie

jamie

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Bard_the_Bowman said:
To change our human nature would mean that what was once human is no longer human because it has become something else.
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Paul agrees that we become something else. Our human nature is hostile to God's instructions.

Jesus said, "The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent and believe in the gospel."

Flesh and blood humans cannot enter God's kingdom. We must be born of the Spirit.
 
keypurr

keypurr

Well-known member
Bard_the_Bowman said:
For what?



The life principle of a body I guess.



Nope. Jesus was fully man and fully God.



Can you back that up with a Scripture verse?

"created form of God"?

Can you clarify what you mean by that please?

I haven't read about that in the Bible yet.
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Phil 2 will tell you that he is a form of God. But that does not make him God.

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keypurr

keypurr

Well-known member
Bard_the_Bowman said:
My point remains valid.

It doesn't matter what the title of a being is. It doesn't matter what the name of a being is.

What matters is what a being is. It's essence.

YHWH will have a Son that has all the attributes of God because sons have the same nature as their fathers.

A human President will have a son that has all of the attributes of a human because sons have the same nature as their fathers.

Titles and names are irrelevant.



Fathers have Sons that have their same nature. So God the Father's Son....is God.

The word "form" used in Philippians 2 means: "the characteristics that make a thing what it is".

So Jesus has the characteristics of God that make God....God. So He is God.



False. Where does the Bible say that the Logos was created? It doesn't. Anywhere.



Where does the Bible say that?



An exact copy? That would mean He is God.



I do like Col. 1:15. Jesus being the "image of the invisible God" means that when those who looked upon Him, they were looking upon God. Col. 1:19 confirms this as it tells us that in Jesus, "all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell". Fullness of God means...God.
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Your point is moot.

The son of a King in not the King.

A clone is not the original.

You fail on all counts.

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oatmeal

oatmeal

Well-known member
Bard_the_Bowman said:
Sons have the same nature as their Fathers. Therefore, God's Son is...God.



I don't think so. Because Jesus tells us how we can do those greater works. He tells us in the context of the surrounding passages.

He tells us that we will do them IF we believe in Him, and that if we ask in His name...HE will do it.

It isn't us doing it at all but Him working through us.

So no, we won't be raising ourselves from the dead and 1 Thessalonians 4 doesn't say that we will.
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Well, the context gives us some incredible information.

John 14:10 Jesus Christ teaches us that Jesus Christ does not do the works but it is the Father who dwells in him is He who does the works

Since it is the Father that does the works, then the ALL power that Jesus says he has been given resides with the Father not with the Son.

Have fun with that one.
 
oatmeal

oatmeal

Well-known member
Bard_the_Bowman said:
The difference is that Jesus is the "only begotten" Son of God.

He is God's Son by nature and Fathers and Sons have the same nature so Jesus is God.

We are all adoptive sons and daughters of God. We have a different nature so we won't be God.

The difference is that Jesus is God and we will never be.
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Well, you might be adopted, but believers are born again by seed, see I Peter 1:23, born again of incorruptible seed, that's me and all believers.

Why not believe and become a son by seed, instead of merely adopted? Israel was adopted because seed was not yet made available.
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

New member
daqq said:
Hi Patrick, there are other passages which say the opposite of what you have posted; so the only way to begin to understand is to look into the passage you have quoted in the original language. But every time someone attempts to do such a thing around here they get accused of being a "scripture corrector", (lol). So I suppose you will just have to ignore the other passages or live with a contradiction in your doctrine, (if you are dead set on the KJV rendering of the passage you have quoted). Have a nice thread though, and, good topic! :thumb: :)
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There are many scriptures that interchange God the Father and Jesus Christ.
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

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S-word said:
The man Jesus, who was the earthly host body that God had prepared for his son to fill with his spirit and reveal himself to the world, and the awesome sacrifice that he makes for his elect and chosen ones, and for the continual survival of the species of mankind, was raised from death by God.

Acts 17: 31; For He (The Lord) has fixed a day in which he will judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.

Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.
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John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
 
keypurr

keypurr

Well-known member
God's Truth said:
John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
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No scripture tells us that he raised himself.

If he died and his spirit went back to God, he could not raise himself.


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