Did God Raise Jesus From The Dead Or Did Jesus Christ Raise Himself?

[keypurr]

Didn't you read post #172?



You are assuming that the Son was created. Where does the Bible say that the Son was created?

John 1 says He was there from the beginning.

If God the Father was ever alone....the "God is Love" is a lie.




That is just your interpretation. I disagree.

John 1 shows that Jesus is not a creation...so He is an uncreated being...so He is God.



I'm trying. And since "without Him not anything was made that was made"... then He Himself cannot have been made.

So Jesus is God.

Do you understand what an IMAGE is?
ALL IMAGES ARE CREATIONS.
Every image needs a subject to be an image of.

God had to be alone at one point.
The express imagr, his spirit son, was the first creation and the Father was pleased that he contained the Father's fullness.
All creation was done THROUGH THE SON, he is FIRSTBORN both as first to be created and position in heaven.

Yes I did read post 172, I at one time would have agreed with you, but not now. The express image is extremely important to study. Christ is a created form of God, not God himself. Jesus was a man that is the body prepared for EXPRESS IMAGE.
Heb 1:3, Col 1:15, Heb 10:5.


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[Bard_the_Bowman]

You do to need another person to express love. That is an inner thought.

An inner thought?? I think love is used in different ways in the Bible. I suppose that discussion will take us in a different direction.

I don't see how a person can love, without there being another person to love.

Col 1:15 tells you that Christ is the firstborn of all creation/creatures.
Everything was created through this spirit son.

I will have to do some digging to find those O.T. characters. They show that the term "firstborn" can be used as a title to show preeminence. It doesn't always mean "created" and it doesn't always mean "the first one to be born."

Bard we do differ but I enjoy sharing with you. You need not agree with me to be friends. Let us continue to share and enjoy as we learn from each other.

Peace, Bob

Sure! :thumb: I enjoy discussing things with you.

God bless.

 

[keypurr]

An inner thought?? I think love is used in different ways in the Bible. I suppose that discussion will take us in a different direction.

I don't see how a person can love, without there being another person to love.

One must love oneself before they can love another. God love himself and wished to share that love.

I will have to do some digging to find those O.T. characters. They show that the term "firstborn" can be used as a title to show preeminence. It doesn't always mean "created" and it doesn't always mean "the first one to be born."



Sure! :thumb: I enjoy discussing things with you.

God bless.

It took me many years to see the Express Image in Heb 1.


Look again at this verse:

Colossians 1:15

(ASV) who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

(BBE) Who is the image of the unseen God coming into existence before all living things;

(Bishops) Who is the image of the inuisible God, the first borne of all creatures.

(CEV) Christ is exactly like God, who cannot be seen. He is the first-born Son, superior to all creation.

(DRB) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

(ESV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

(Geneva) Who is the image of the inuisible God, the first begotten of euery creature.

(GNB) Christ is the visible likeness of the invisible God. He is the first-born Son, superior to all created things.

(GW) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

(ISV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

(KJV) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

(KJV+) WhoG3739 isG2076 the imageG1504 of theG3588 invisibleG517 God,G2316 the firstbornG4416 of everyG3956 creature:G2937

(NAS77) And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.

(NASB) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

(NET.) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation,

(NIrV) Christ is the exact likeness of God, who can't be seen. He is first, and he is over all of creation.

(NIV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

(NKJV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

(NRSV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

(NRSVA) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

(TNIV) The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

(YLT) who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,


Notice Creation and Creature are used. The Son is a creature, first of all creation.
For God created ALL through his spirit Son. Notice he is the image OF HIS INVISIBLE GOD, WHO IS A SPIRIT.
Most see Jesus as the human son of God, and he is, BUT the TRUE Son is the logos that went into him at his anointing. That Son came with POWER. Acts 10:38 tells us when he got that power. The Son was given the fullness of the Father.

ARAMAIC ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT

YOCHANAN (JOHN)
Chapter 1
1. In the beginning was the Miltha. And that Miltha was with Elohim. And Elohim was that Miltha.
2. This was with Elohim in the beginning.
3. Everything existed through his hands……….

Miltha refers to the “Manifestation” of the Ruach haKodesh within Mashiyach.
The physical body of Mashiyach is not the Word of YHWH, but his words and actions demonstrate the Will and Word of YHWH, which upholds observance of Torah.

Miltha is the spiritual son of Elohim (God).
Mashiyach refers to Messiah Y’shua (Jesus Christ)
YHWH is the name of the most high God.
Ruach haKodesh is the Holy Spirit.
Elohim is God or a god, it can refer to more than the creator.

The logos (Christ, spirit Son) is the Miltha. A spirit like his Father.

Jesus became the Christ when Christ went into him.

Peace my friend, give it some of your time to digest my thoughts.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

How does that say that Jesus is God?
If you said you were your father's son does that make you the father does that make you equal to your father (no) but you might get people saying oh you look like or act like your father.
Jesus was saying here he had his father in him. He never once said he was God because he wasn't. Only the Jewish leaders were saying that he was making himself equal to God. You said there are many verses to prove that Jesus is God but i can not find one, only these accusations from the Jewish leaders. I can find many that show he is not God but the Son.
He was only doing the will of the father as we must do too, never did he do his own will but thy will be done so if he wasn't doing his own will he can't be God.

I disagree.

Scripture is quite clear that the reason the Jewish leaders wanted Jesus to be killed is because He made Himself equal to God by claiming to be God's Son. There are many verses that show this, but for brevity, here's just one.

John 5:18: "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."

Those are the words of St. John the Apostle who is being led by the Holy Spirit.

Those are not the words of the Jewish leaders.

So your claim that "only the Jewish leaders were saying He was making Himself equal to God."... is simply false.

John specifically tells us why they wanted Him killed...He made "himself equal with God."

That is what is meant by calling God His Father, by claiming to be one with God, and by claiming to be God's Son. That is how a 1st century Jew would hear the words of Jesus. Not so much for 21st century non-Jewish folk....but the Bible clearly shows that that is what is meant.

Jesus knew it. He never corrected anyone by saying, "Hang on, I'm not claiming to be God...you guys are misunderstanding!"

And the Jewish leaders knew it. That is why when Pilate wants to release Jesus because he can find no reason to have him killed they finally come out and tell him in John 18:7: "..., We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God."

And that is why immediately after John 10:30: " I and my Father are one."

comes verse 31: "Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him."

John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Jesus' human will is in perfect accordance with the divine will.

So my answers to your questions

No he wasn't God

No he wasn't lying because it wasn't Jesus saying he was God

Then our current choices for Jesus are:

1. He was a pathetic teacher because people thought He was making Himself equal to
God (even St. John and the Holy Spirit) even though He wasn't....AND HE NEVER BOTHERED TO CORRECT THEIR THINKING.

2. He was crazy because He made Himself equal to God...but He really wasn't. He just didn't know that.

3. He was lying because He made Himself equal to God, but He knew He wasn't.

or

4. He was who He claimed He was. God.

And no far from it we would be the crazy one's if we believe he was.

I'm afraid not.

1,2, and 3 above do not square with the Biblical data.

#4 does.

People want signs to be able to believe in anything,
Jesus was that sign and the example as any teacher you meet, if you don't follow the example we will never learn the truth and the way.

If we don't have the Truth about who Jesus is....it doesn't matter what else we have the truth about.

He is everything.

Pathetic teacher? No way.
Crazy? No way.
Liar? No way.
God? Absolutely!

Peace.

 

[marhig]

Sons have the same natures as their fathers. And Jesus did claim to be God. That is why the Jewish leaders wanted to kill Him.

You do not think He was God, but if He wasn't...then He was either crazy because He thought He was but didn't realize He wasn't....or He was liar because He claimed to be but He knew He wasn't.

Remember, to the 1st century Jewish mind, to claim to be God's son is to claim to be equal to God is to claim to be God.

And that is why they wanted to kill Him.



Amen. :thumb:



Actually, it does. Because to be there from the beginning is to be an uncreated being. An uncreated being is God.

John 1 tells us that Jesus was there from the beginning.

If Jesus was created by the Father...then He wasn't there from the beginning and that would contradict John 1.



Jesus can be God and still be lesser in other ways. For example, God the Father "sent" the Son into the world.
The Father is the "sender" Jesus is the one who was "sent". But that doesn't mean that the Father is God and Jesus isn't. Jesus said this in John 13:16: "...neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him..."

The Son isn't greater than the Father...but He still has the same nature as the Father and so is God.



Why not?

The Resurrection of Jesus was a physical, bodily Resurrection. His Ascension into Heaven was a physical, bodily Ascension. He got His wounds in His body poked by Thomas, He ate fish, etc.



Why?

I don't think I've run into that idea in the Bible yet...but I admit that I do not know the Bible as well as I should.

But Jesus didn't leave anything of His human nature behind. His Resurrection was a bodily one.

,

I disagree. He embraced His human nature and showed us how to live. Yes, He never sinned...but that isn't denying human nature...that is living with human nature perfectly in the way we were intended to live. Just like Adam and Eve did before they sinned.



Amen. But that is not to deny our human nature but to live with it in accordance with God's will.



God said that human flesh is good. In Genesis, after creating everything, He saw that it was very good.(Genesis 1:31)

Ecclesiastes is a unique book in the Bible because it basically asks the question that the rest of the Bible answers.

It says everything is vanity under the sun. But the one thing the author doesn't try or mention is true religion and relationship with God. Love of God and love of neighbor.

The rest of the Bible shows us God's love and shows us the answer to Ecclesiastes which is to know and love Him and love others. Yes, our bodies and spirits are separated at death. That is the definition of death. But they will be reunited at His Second Coming.



I agree with you. My point was that God was with us because Jesus is God. And yes, God is in his people now, but we are not God. I agree.



Because He is God. This is a big topic because there are so many scripture verses that need to be looked at and we have barely touched on some.

I think you once stated that the evidence is overwhelming that Jesus is not God.
I think that the evidence is overwhelming that Jesus is God.



Jesus is the Son of God by nature. We are sons/daughters by adoption/grace. Jesus words can be true, and He can be God.

Peace.

Bard we'll never agree, so i thought I'd quote some scriptures to show you why i believe as i do.

These scriptures are some of those that clearly show us that Jesus isn't God

And to me, the most clear one is Jesus himself saying that we are to know the only true God, whom Jesus himself says is the father and Jesus says that he had been sent by the father who is his God.

I'm not reading the odd verse and getting it wrong, there are many that clearly show us that God is the God and father of Jesus Christ. Even Jesus himself says so.

So why shouldn't I believe him?

Here goes

It is not mine to grant but is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.(Matthew 20:20-23 KJV)

1 Corinthians 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?(Matthew 26:39 & 27:46 KJV)

Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me, not by my will, but thy will.(Luke 22:42 KJV)

Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.(Luke 23:46 KJV)

Father, the hour is come; glorify your Son - as you have given him power over all flesh

John continues:

Life eternal is this to know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.(John 17:1-3 KJV)

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (John 5:19 KJV)

I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me bears witness of me. (John 8:18 KJV).

Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father…I ascend unto my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.”(John 20:17 KJV)

I go unto the Father, for my Father is greater than I.”(John 14:28 KJV)

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.(John 5-30)


Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God(Mark 10:17-18 KJV)

And that is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, but to us there is but one God, the Father of whom are all things and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by him. (1 Corinthians 8:4-6 KJV)

But I would have you know that the head of every man in Christ and the head of the woman is the man and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3).

For there is one God and one mediator between God and man,the man Christ Jesus.(1 Timothy 2:5 KJV)

Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort. (2Corinthians 1:3 KJV)

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ (rev 12)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 1:3 KJV)

Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.(Hebrews 10)

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh,that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent..I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Ephesians 1

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him

Revelation 1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.(Hebrews 1:9)

Revelation 3

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God and I will write upon him my new name..He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

The beginning John is speaking of does not necessarily mean eternity past.

Well, I disagree because John 1 makes it pretty clear that the beginning was before anything was created,
and that Jesus was there before anything was created and that all things were created through Him, so He is an uncreated being....which is God....who existed for eternity past.

MSG
“God sovereignly made me—the first, the basic— before he did anything else. I was brought into being a long time ago, well before Earth got its start. I arrived on the scene before Ocean, yes, even before Springs and Rivers and Lakes. Before Mountains were sculpted and Hills took shape, I was already there, newborn; Long before God stretched out Earth’s Horizons, and tended to the minute details of Soil and Weather, And set Sky firmly in place, I was there. When he mapped and gave borders to wild Ocean, built the vast vault of Heaven, and installed the fountains that fed Ocean, When he drew a boundary for Sea, posted a sign that said no trespassing, And then staked out Earth’s Foundations, I was right there with him, making sure everything fit. Day after day I was there, with my joyful applause, always enjoying his company, Delighted with the world of things and creatures, happily celebrating the human family.

Could you please direct me to the source of the passage above?

I am not familiar with what is meant by "MSG". I thought maybe it was "The Message" translation of the Bible but I am not finding those passages.

Can you clarify where that is please?

Thanks.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Do you understand what an IMAGE is?
ALL IMAGES ARE CREATIONS.
Every image needs a subject to be an image of.

In a sense I do agree with you. However, Jesus is different. John 1 and elsewhere are clear that He is not a part of creation. So He is not a created being. He became the visible image of the invisible God when He took on flesh and became a man. But He existed as a person before that, as pure spirit. Jesus as a human being could be said to be the image with God as the subject.

God had to be alone at one point.

The Bible doesn't say that anywhere. And I still don't see how God can be love without another person to love.

Self-love is a synonym for narcissism and God isn't narcissistic.

The express imagr, his spirit son, was the first creation and the Father was pleased that he contained the Father's fullness.

John 1 disagrees with what you say above. The Bible nowhere says that The Word was created. The Bible says that everything was created through Him.

Since He cannot create Himself....He is an uncreated being.....and that is God.

All creation was done THROUGH THE SON,

Then the Son cannot be a created being. If He is a created being then He is a part of creation and ALL creation could not have been done through Him. That is a logical contradiction.

he is FIRSTBORN both as first to be created and position in heaven.

"firstborn" doesn't mean "first to be created" in all cases. It can't mean that in this case or we have biblical contradictions which are lies.

Yes I did read post 172, I at one time would have agreed with you, but not now. The express image is extremely important to study. Christ is a created form of God, not God himself. Jesus was a man that is the body prepared for EXPRESS IMAGE.
Heb 1:3, Col 1:15, Heb 10:5.

Jesus isn't a body. Jesus is a person. If Jesus is a man that was prepared for the "express image" then He would have to be a man, with a spirit/soul to animate Him, who would then be possessed with the "express image" of God and now all we have is a spiritual parasite who took over Jesus' body.

What do you think happened to the spirit/soul of Jesus when the "express image" of God filled it?

Peace.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Well, I disagree because John 1 makes it pretty clear that the beginning was before anything was created,
and that Jesus was there before anything was created and that all things were created through Him, so He is an uncreated being....which is God....who existed for eternity past.

"Eternity past" comes from man's imagination.

Could you please direct me to the source of the passage above?

I am not familiar with what is meant by "MSG". I thought maybe it was "The Message" translation of the Bible but I am not finding those passages.

Can you clarify where that is please?

Thanks.

Proverbs 8.

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs 8:22

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

In a sense I do agree with you. However, Jesus is different. John 1 and elsewhere are clear that He is not a part of creation. So He is not a created being. He became the visible image of the invisible God when He took on flesh and became a man. But He existed as a person before that, as pure spirit. Jesus as a human being could be said to be the image with God as the subject.



The Bible doesn't say that anywhere. And I still don't see how God can be love without another person to love.

Self-love is a synonym for narcissism and God isn't narcissistic.



John 1 disagrees with what you say above. The Bible nowhere says that The Word was created. The Bible says that everything was created through Him.

Since He cannot create Himself....He is an uncreated being.....and that is God.



Then the Son cannot be a created being. If He is a created being then He is a part of creation and ALL creation could not have been done through Him. That is a logical contradiction.



"firstborn" doesn't mean "first to be created" in all cases. It can't mean that in this case or we have biblical contradictions which are lies.



Jesus isn't a body. Jesus is a person. If Jesus is a man that was prepared for the "express image" then He would have to be a man, with a spirit/soul to animate Him, who would then be possessed with the "express image" of God and now all we have is a spiritual parasite who took over Jesus' body.

What do you think happened to the spirit/soul of Jesus when the "express image" of God filled it?

Peace.

Not sure what Keypurr thinks, but I'll give it a shot.

Looks to me like the Son left part of himself in heaven when he was made flesh.

 

[keypurr]

In a sense I do agree with you. However, Jesus is different. John 1 and elsewhere are clear that He is not a part of creation. So He is not a created being. He became the visible image of the invisible God when He took on flesh and became a man. But He existed as a person before that, as pure spirit. Jesus as a human being could be said to be the image with God as the subject.



The Bible doesn't say that anywhere. And I still don't see how God can be love without another person to love.

Self-love is a synonym for narcissism and God isn't narcissistic.



John 1 disagrees with what you say above. The Bible nowhere says that The Word was created. The Bible says that everything was created through Him.

Since He cannot create Himself....He is an uncreated being.....and that is God.



Then the Son cannot be a created being. If He is a created being then He is a part of creation and ALL creation could not have been done through Him. That is a logical contradiction.



"firstborn" doesn't mean "first to be created" in all cases. It can't mean that in this case or we have biblical contradictions which are lies.



Jesus isn't a body. Jesus is a person. If Jesus is a man that was prepared for the "express image" then He would have to be a man, with a spirit/soul to animate Him, who would then be possessed with the "express image" of God and now all we have is a spiritual parasite who took over Jesus' body.

What do you think happened to the spirit/soul of Jesus when the "express image" of God filled it?

Peace.

Bard, the Son (not Jesus?who was at the creation is a spirit being exactly like his Father. Heb 1:3. He was the first to be born. Col 1:15. He is a creature Col 1:15.

God created all things through his spirit Son so he has to be firstborn of all creation.

Jesus is a man BORN to Mary. He was not at the creation. There is a difference between the flesh son and the spirit son. The Spirit so did dwell in Jesus and spoke through him. It was after God joined the two that they became one. Jesus became the Christ when he was anointed with the Christ (spirit son).

Demons are spirits, Jesus cast a legion of them out of a man and sent them into the swine.

If The son is not a spirit being why would he need a body prepared for him? This is how the logos (spirit son) became flesh.

Keep in mind that the Father was pleased that his spirit son had his fullness. The logos is a created Godlike creature. All the power to created the Universe yet still a creation. That is why Jesus Christ tells you that his Father is greater than All, for only his Father is the true God.


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[keypurr]

Not sure what Keypurr thinks, but I'll give it a shot.

Looks to me like the Son left part of himself in heaven when he was made flesh.

No friend. Keypurr sees the true son as the express image of the Father who is a spirit. I see this spirit being who created all taking the form of man in the body prepared for him. Jesus became the complete son only after he was anointed with the logos. It was only them God declared that this was his son.


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[Bard_the_Bowman]

One must love oneself before they can love another. God love himself and wished to share that love.

Are those Biblical ideas? I'll admit that I don't know my Bible as well as I should but I don't remember reading those things. They sortof sound like modern day psychology stuff.

It took me many years to see the Express Image in Heb 1.


Look again at this verse:

Colossians 1:15

(ASV) who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

(BBE) Who is the image of the unseen God coming into existence before all living things;

(Bishops) Who is the image of the inuisible God, the first borne of all creatures.

(CEV) Christ is exactly like God, who cannot be seen. He is the first-born Son, superior to all creation.

(DRB) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

(ESV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

(Geneva) Who is the image of the inuisible God, the first begotten of euery creature.

(GNB) Christ is the visible likeness of the invisible God. He is the first-born Son, superior to all created things.

(GW) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

(ISV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

(KJV) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

(KJV+) WhoG3739 isG2076 the imageG1504 of theG3588 invisibleG517 God,G2316 the firstbornG4416 of everyG3956 creature:G2937

(NAS77) And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.

(NASB) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

(NET.) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation,

(NIrV) Christ is the exact likeness of God, who can't be seen. He is first, and he is over all of creation.

(NIV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

(NKJV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

(NRSV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

(NRSVA) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

(TNIV) The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

(YLT) who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,


Notice Creation and Creature are used. The Son is a creature, first of all creation.

Yeah, the words creation and creature are used.

But notice also that the Son is never called a creature. In fact, He can't be if "without Him not anything was made that was made." He must be outside of creation and so must be God.

And firstborn is a title of preeminence and authority. I think the Colossians were having a bit of trouble with being angel worshippers. So Paul is making the point that Jesus has authority/preeminence over all of creation. (1 Colossians 1:18-20)

For God created ALL through his spirit Son.

Then the Son is not a created being. He can't be or we have a logical contradiction.

Notice he is the image OF HIS INVISIBLE GOD, WHO IS A SPIRIT.
Most see Jesus as the human son of God, and he is, BUT the TRUE Son is the logos that went into him at his anointing. That Son came with POWER. Acts 10:38 tells us when he got that power. The Son was given the fullness of the Father.

I agree somewhat. The Son was a pure spirit...until He humbled Himself to take on human flesh.

According to John 1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

Jesus is the Logos, the Spirit Son of God, who willingly took on human flesh out of love for mankind.

Jesus wasn't a man, who was then possessed by the Logos. He is the Logos.

ARAMAIC ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT

YOCHANAN (JOHN)
Chapter 1
1. In the beginning was the Miltha. And that Miltha was with Elohim. And Elohim was that Miltha.
2. This was with Elohim in the beginning.
3. Everything existed through his hands……….

Miltha refers to the “Manifestation” of the Ruach haKodesh within Mashiyach.
The physical body of Mashiyach is not the Word of YHWH, but his words and actions demonstrate the Will and Word of YHWH, which upholds observance of Torah.

Miltha is the spiritual son of Elohim (God).
Mashiyach refers to Messiah Y’shua (Jesus Christ)
YHWH is the name of the most high God.
Ruach haKodesh is the Holy Spirit.

Interesting, I will have to take the time to re-read this more closely.

Elohim is God or a god, it can refer to more than the creator.

How many true gods exist?

The logos (Christ, spirit Son) is the Miltha. A spirit like his Father.

Jesus became the Christ when Christ went into him.

That doesn't sound correct to me. I believe "Christ" is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew "Messiah" which means "the anointed one."

It is a title. Jesus is the Messiah, Christ, anointed one....but that is just a title.

Jesus didn't become the Messiah when the Messiah went into Him.

He is the Messiah.

Peace my friend, give it some of your time to digest my thoughts.

And Peace to you as well.

I will go back and re-read your post. You bring up good points.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Bard we'll never agree, so i thought I'd quote some scriptures to show you why i believe as i do.

Hi marhig,

I quite like your attitude and, honestly, prefer it myself. I don't really think conversations should be primarily engaged to convince others that one is right and the other is wrong. I like your idea of sharing thoughts and showing each other why we believe what we believe.

These scriptures are some of those that clearly show us that Jesus isn't God

I am going to try go respond briefly and omit your list of verses. Not out of disrespect, but to try help me keep this post shorter.

I understand where you are coming from, I think. But here is my issue.

Your list doesn't include ALL of the passages in Scripture which speak to this subject. It only includes SOME of them. And it only includes those which support your position. I know it is impossible to list all of them, but we should at least consider them all when making our decisions about whatever topic we are studying.

There are other passages which, I think speak quite clearly about Jesus being God. I won't list them all here but John 1 is pretty clear, Jesus repeatedly using the divine name "I AM" and applying it to Himself comes to mind, Jesus repeatedly referring to Himself as "the Son of Man" from Daniel 7, Almighty God being referred to as the "Alpha and Omega...beginning and the end" in Revelation and then Jesus being referred to as "Alpha and Omega...beginning and the end" in the same book, etc.

All of those verses have to be harmonized with all of the ones you listed. If they cannot be harmonized, then they are lies. And we know that God doesn't lie.

And to me, the most clear one is Jesus himself saying that we are to know the only true God, whom Jesus himself says is the father and Jesus says that he had been sent by the father who is his God.

I'm not reading the odd verse and getting it wrong, there are many that clearly show us that God is the God and father of Jesus Christ. Even Jesus himself says so.

I think it is important to remember that Jesus had two natures. A divine nature and a human nature.

And that He is the "only begotten Son of God" in a way that nobody else is.

So why shouldn't I believe him?

Well, we should believe Him. But not just in certain places...but in all places. In Mark 14:62-64 we see that the Jewish leaders want to kill Him again.

But why? It was not a crime to claim to be the Messiah.

It was a crime to make oneself equal to God.

When we look at the reaction of the Jewish leaders to Jesus....we can see that the trilemma made famous by C.S. Lewis remains for us:

Jesus claimed to be equal to God. (that means He claimed to be God.)

If He wasn't and He knew that....He was a liar.
If He wasn't and He didn't know that....He was crazy.

Or

He was and He spoke the Truth.

The only way I have heard of people trying to escape the trilemma is to say that Jesus was just a good moral teacher, or that He never existed.

Well, good moral teachers do not lie and are not crazy so that option is not available.

And saying He never existed is just ridiculous.

So I believe Him in His claims to being equal to God.

Perhaps this topic is wearing us down a little. It is quite a lot to think about.

I hope to cross paths with you and discuss other things from time to time.

(Ha! So much for trying to keep it short! )

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

"Eternity past" comes from man's imagination.

Well, maybe. But logical reasoning cannot just be dismissed.

There is good reason to believe that the universe had an uncaused first cause which existed eternally outside of the creation of time.

Proverbs 8.

Well, that is an interesting translation, for sure. I've never read it before.

Wisdom is presented in different ways in the Bible. In Proverbs 8, I'm not convinced we should be taking that in a literal sense. After all, it says: "“I am Lady Wisdom, and I live next to Sanity; Knowledge and Discretion live just down the street....Wealth and Glory accompany me— also substantial Honor and a Good Name....You can find me on Righteous Road—that’s where I walk—at the intersection of Justice Avenue,..."

I'd have to look back at your earlier post to remember exactly what your point was...but I don't think Proverbs 8 shows that Jesus is a created being (if my memory serves, I think that is what was meant....I could be wrong.)

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Not sure what Keypurr thinks, but I'll give it a shot.

Looks to me like the Son left part of himself in heaven when he was made flesh.

Well, that is kind of speculative, though, don't you think?

I mean, John 1:14 says "the Word became flesh and blood".

It doesn't say: "part of the Word became flesh and blood".

"The Word became flesh and blood, and moved into the neighborhood." (John 1:14 MSG)

 

[dodge]

Do you understand what an IMAGE is?
ALL IMAGES ARE CREATIONS.
Every image needs a subject to be an image of.

God had to be alone at one point.
The express imagr, his spirit son, was the first creation and the Father was pleased that he contained the Father's fullness.
All creation was done THROUGH THE SON, he is FIRSTBORN both as first to be created and position in heaven.

Yes I did read post 172, I at one time would have agreed with you, but not now. The express image is extremely important to study. Christ is a created form of God, not God himself. Jesus was a man that is the body prepared for EXPRESS IMAGE.
Heb 1:3, Col 1:15, Heb 10:5.


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Just a thought ! When you speak what comes out that would be your word correct ? IS your word "you" ?

 

[keypurr]

Are those Biblical ideas? I'll admit that I don't know my Bible as well as I should but I don't remember reading those things. They sortof sound like modern day psychology stuff.



Yeah, the words creation and creature are used.

But notice also that the Son is never called a creature. In fact, He can't be if "without Him not anything was made that was made." He must be outside of creation and so must be God.

And firstborn is a title of preeminence and authority. I think the Colossians were having a bit of trouble with being angel worshippers. So Paul is making the point that Jesus has authority/preeminence over all of creation. (1 Colossians 1:18-20)



Then the Son is not a created being. He can't be or we have a logical contradiction.



I agree somewhat. The Son was a pure spirit...until He humbled Himself to take on human flesh.

According to John 1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

Jesus is the Logos, the Spirit Son of God, who willingly took on human flesh out of love for mankind.

Jesus wasn't a man, who was then possessed by the Logos. He is the Logos.

ARAMAIC ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT



Interesting, I will have to take the time to re-read this more closely.



How many true gods exist?



That doesn't sound correct to me. I believe "Christ" is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew "Messiah" which means "the anointed one."

It is a title. Jesus is the Messiah, Christ, anointed one....but that is just a title.

Jesus didn't become the Messiah when the Messiah went into Him.

He is the Messiah.



And Peace to you as well.

I will go back and re-read your post. You bring up good points.

The son is. Called a creature in Col 1:15 kjv, and an image which is a creation in Heb 1:3.

The true spirit sin is the first of all creation for God created all through him. Therefor the Son is firstborn of all creation in both ways.

Jesus is not the logos as he was born flesh. The logos became flesh. The logos came with power. Jesus had to grow in wisdom, he was not given the power in his youth.

There is only one true God, John 17:3.


Messiah, like the word Christ means the anointed one.
Jesus became the Messiah at his baptism. Acts 10:38

Peace Bard, I understand your position as I once felt the same way.






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[keypurr]

Well, that is kind of speculative, though, don't you think?

I mean, John 1:14 says "the Word became flesh and blood".

It doesn't say: "part of the Word became flesh and blood".

"The Word became flesh and blood, and moved into the neighborhood." (John 1:14 MSG)

Consider what the word was before it became flesh.


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[1Mind1Spirit]

Well, that is kind of speculative, though, don't you think?

I mean, John 1:14 says "the Word became flesh and blood".

It doesn't say: "part of the Word became flesh and blood".

"The Word became flesh and blood, and moved into the neighborhood." (John 1:14 MSG)

KJV
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Philippians 2:7

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

The son is. Called a creature in Col 1:15 kjv, and an image which is a creation in Heb 1:3.

Neither one of those passages say that the Son is a creature or created being. Nowhere does the Bible say that the Son is a created being. And to say that He is makes nonsense of John 1 where we are told that nothing was made without Him.

So He cannot have been made.

"Firstborn" is a title of preeminence.

Psalm 89:27 calls David the "firstborn" even though we know that he was the youngest in his family. That is a title that shows his preeminence.

In Jeremiah 31:9, Ephraim is called the "firstborn" even though Manassah was the "first one to be born". The term used for Ephraim again shows preeminence. It doesn't literally mean "the first to be born".

Likewise, Jesus also is referred to with the title of "firstborn". But that doesn't mean He was created or the "first to be born", either. It is a title used to show His preeminence and authority over all things.

There is no scripture verse that I know of that says that the Son was created.

The true spirit sin is the first of all creation for God created all through him. Therefor the Son is firstborn of all creation in both ways.

The Son has preeminence over all of creation. That is what "firstborn" means.

It is illogical to say that God created all through Him if He is a created being.

It makes sense to say that God created all through Him if He is not a created being.

Jesus is not the logos as he was born flesh. The logos became flesh. The logos came with power. Jesus had to grow in wisdom, he was not given the power in his youth.

The kenosis in Phillipians 2 explains that. Jesus is the Logos who humbled Himself to take on flesh.
Jesus, the Logos, fully humbled Himself and became fully human. Including growing in wisdom as a man.

There is only one true God, John 17:3.

Agreed.

Messiah, like the word Christ means the anointed one.
Jesus became the Messiah at his baptism. Acts 10:38

Well, I don't have a problem with that. It is just that being the Messiah or Anointed One is just a title, it isn't another person. Jesus is the Messiah. But He is the same person before that designation as well as after it.

Peace Bard, I understand your position as I once felt the same way.

Quick question: Why do you think the Jewish leaders wanted Jesus to be killed?

Peace.





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