Did God Raise Jesus From The Dead Or Did Jesus Christ Raise Himself?

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Yes indeed, the Lord our God is one Lord.

And the one Lord God chose to have a son that would carry out the Lord God's will and redeem mankind from their sins.

The son is the lord Jesus Christ, lord, jr. if you will.

Sons have the same nature as their Fathers. Therefore, God's Son is...God.

The son is obedient to the Father because it is required of children to honor their father and mother. This Jesus did and that is what we are to do as sons of God, I John 3:2 Romans 8:14.....

We, as sons of God, are to do the same works as Jesus Christ and greater works than what Jesus Christ did. John 14:12

What works did Jesus Christ do? What are those greater works?

Did Jesus raise himself from the dead? Then we should raise ourselves from the dead, See I Thessalonians 4:13-18

I don't think so. Because Jesus tells us how we can do those greater works. He tells us in the context of the surrounding passages.

He tells us that we will do them IF we believe in Him, and that if we ask in His name...HE will do it.

It isn't us doing it at all but Him working through us.

So no, we won't be raising ourselves from the dead and 1 Thessalonians 4 doesn't say that we will.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

We will be "just" like him with regard to being the same kind as are all siblings.

We won't be just like him in terms of having the same name and authority, we may not have the same taste in food or music. Our house may be different, we may not comb our hair the same and we will not generate life. Jesus is the last Adam and we are also different from Adam.

We are heirs of the Father the same as our brother Jesus, the Christ. We are not Jesus and Jesus is not us. We are not the King of kings, just one of the kings. We are not the Lord of lords, just one of the lords.

We are children of the Father, not his pet dogs or cats, not parakeets or lizards and not his pet snake.

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree and all that stuff.

The difference is that Jesus is the "only begotten" Son of God.

He is God's Son by nature and Fathers and Sons have the same nature so Jesus is God.

We are all adoptive sons and daughters of God. We have a different nature so we won't be God.

The difference is that Jesus is God and we will never be.

 

[glorydaz]

There is overwhelming evidence that he isn't, there's so many verses that they are everywhere in the new testament. Even Jesus himself clearly says the God is his God. Why don't people believe him when he says this?

It's too bad you don't know about the countless verses that tell us Jesus is God in the flesh. Emmanuel...God with us. The Creator of all things. John the Baptist quotes from Isaiah saying he is the voice crying in the wilderness to prepare a way for OUR GOD. This he did.

Isaiah 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.​

The Lord God tells us there is no Saviour besides Himself, and we see Jesus Christ is the Saviour of the world. Either God lied or they are the ONE God.

Hosea 13:4 Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no Saviour beside me.

2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:​

Christ is the image of the invisible God....all things were created by Him.

Colossians 1:15-17
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.​

But, I know some who only believe half of the truth and ignore the other half. A half truth always ends up to be a full lie.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

=keypurr;4986058]The word God is a title, like President.
God's name is YHWH.
Now tell me, is the son of the President the President?

My point remains valid.

It doesn't matter what the title of a being is. It doesn't matter what the name of a being is.

What matters is what a being is. It's essence.

YHWH will have a Son that has all the attributes of God because sons have the same nature as their fathers.

A human President will have a son that has all of the attributes of a human because sons have the same nature as their fathers.

Titles and names are irrelevant.

The son of God is NOT God. Phil 2 tells you that he is a form of god.

Fathers have Sons that have their same nature. So God the Father's Son....is God.

The word "form" used in Philippians 2 means: "the characteristics that make a thing what it is".

So Jesus has the characteristics of God that make God....God. So He is God.

The spirit son, logos, was given the fullness of the Father, yet he is a creature/creation.

False. Where does the Bible say that the Logos was created? It doesn't. Anywhere.

The first creation.

Where does the Bible say that?

He is the exact copy of his creator and God created all through him/it.

An exact copy? That would mean He is God.

Heb 1:3, Col 1:15

I do like Col. 1:15. Jesus being the "image of the invisible God" means that when those who looked upon Him, they were looking upon God. Col. 1:19 confirms this as it tells us that in Jesus, "all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell". Fullness of God means...God.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

And once we are born of God, and we walk in the spirit, and become at one with God and Christ, then we should have the same nature also, but that doesn't make us God!

The difference is that Jesus is God's Son by nature.

Not so for us. We are children of God (sons and daughters) by adoption.

So no, being adopted sons and daughters does not make us God. We are human beings and becoming adopted into God's family doesn't change our nature.

But that isn't the case with Jesus Christ. He is the "only begotten Son of God." He is God's Son by nature so He is God.

 

[Stevo1]

The difference is that Jesus is the "only begotten" Son of God.

He is God's Son by nature and Fathers and Sons have the same nature so Jesus is God.

We are all adoptive sons and daughters of God. We have a different nature so we won't be God.

The difference is that Jesus is God and we will never be.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Jesus has to be the image of God so that he can be our mediator. Hence why people think he is God.

He could do nothing without the father like we can do nothing without the son in our heart, he is the one that we are judged by because he came and lived the life out to show us the way the truth and the life.

I was born into sinful flesh which is like a prison in which my spirit is in and that sinful flesh is what we must leave behind, not only when we are dead but also when we are alive.
Jesus taught us how to do this but are flesh wants to fight it so much that we can forget what God sent his son to do and we can kill Jesus by not living his life as is required of us to reach God himself.

No man has seen God but through Jesus it is possible

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
14:7
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

There is overwhelming evidence that he isn't, there's so many verses that they are everywhere in the new testament. Even Jesus himself clearly says the God is his God. Why don't people believe him when he says this?

There is a lot to this topic, wouldn't you agree? I mean, there is a lot to consider, there is lots of biblical passages, and the Bible isn't even a book...it is a library...a bunch of books, and we really shouldn't be coming to conclusions until/unless we have looked at everything the Bible has to say about a topic...not just some things it has to say. So, I don't know, there is a lot to it, I guess.

One of the things for me is that it is pretty clear that the Jewish leaders wanted Him killed because He claimed equality with God. (John 19:7, for example).

Now, just because Jesus claimed to be God doesn't mean that He is.

But who walks around claiming to be God? Today or back then or anytime?

It seems like only crazy people or liars.

If Jesus claimed to be God and wasn't and He knew He wasn't He was a big fat liar.

If Jesus claimed to be God and wasn't but He didn't know that He wasn't He was a crazy person.

But when I read the New Testament about His life and the things He said and did, I have to conclude...no way.
He doesn't sound crazy or like a liar.

Some people claim that He was just a good moral teacher. But good moral teachers don't lie about who they are and they are not crazy.

So I think the best explanation is that He is who He claimed to be.

Jesus is God.

God bless you, marhig.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Jesus has to be the image of God so that he can be our mediator. Hence why people think he is God.

Actually we are told that Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God and that the fullness of God dwells in Him.

And the perfect mediator between God and man would be, well, God in the flesh of a man.

And that is what Jesus is. God in the flesh of man. He can bridge the gap between man and God because He is one person with two natures. A fully human nature, and a fully divine nature.

He could do nothing without the father like we can do nothing without the son in our heart, he is the one that we are judged by because he came and lived the life out to show us the way the truth and the life.

I was born into sinful flesh which is like a prison in which my spirit is in and that sinful flesh is what we must leave behind, not only when we are dead but also when we are alive.
Jesus taught us how to do this but are flesh wants to fight it so much that we can forget what God sent his son to do and we can kill Jesus by not living his life as is required of us to reach God himself.

No man has seen God but through Jesus it is possible

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
14:7
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

 

[patrick jane]

Actually we are told that Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God and that the fullness of God dwells in Him.

And the perfect mediator between God and man would be, well, God in the flesh of a man.

And that is what Jesus is. God in the flesh of man. He can bridge the gap between man and God because He is one person with two natures. A fully human nature, and a fully divine nature.

John 1:14 KJV - :thumb:

 

[marhig]

It's too bad you don't know about the countless verses that tell us Jesus is God in the flesh. Emmanuel...God with us. The Creator of all things. John the Baptist quotes from Isaiah saying he is the voice crying in the wilderness to prepare a way for OUR GOD. This he did.

Isaiah 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.​

The Lord God tells us there is no Saviour besides Himself, and we see Jesus Christ is the Saviour of the world. Either God lied or they are the ONE God.

Hosea 13:4 Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no Saviour beside me.

2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:​

Christ is the image of the invisible God....all things were created by Him.

Colossians 1:15-17
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.​

But, I know some who only believe half of the truth and ignore the other half. A half truth always ends up to be a full lie.

Of course Jesus is Emmanuel, God with us, I've never said he isn't, in fact I've said this is the past. But he was God with us because he laid down his life and he was dead to his flesh, and God lived in fullness through Christ Jesus, not because he is the Almighty God!

Paul said that God was in Christ Jesus, reconciling the world unto himself, not that Jesus Christ is God. Jesus never sinned, not once, he said that the devil had nothing in him, and because no sin was in him, God was seen in and through him fully. He was in the express image of God, but he isn't God, the father is God, and Jesus himself said that the father was also his God too.

 

[marhig]

The difference is that Jesus is God's Son by nature.

Not so for us. We are children of God (sons and daughters) by adoption.

So no, being adopted sons and daughters does not make us God. We are human beings and becoming adopted into God's family doesn't change our nature.

But that isn't the case with Jesus Christ. He is the "only begotten Son of God." He is God's Son by nature so He is God.

Christ came into this sinful flesh, he who knew no sin to bare witness to the truth, this is what Jesus Christ says he was born and came into this world for. And he was fathered of God in the womb, he had the spirit of God always with him, and it says in the Bible that Jesus waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him. We have sinned and that's why we have to turn from sin and obey God and once we receive the spirit, we are born of God.

And you are wrong regarding our change of nature, because once we are born of God, then the Holy Spirit should be changing our hearts to be more like that of Christ, and our nature should be changing to be more like that of God and Christ. And the works of our flesh should be dying, and the fruits of the Spirit should be seen more and more in our lives as the seed of Christ grows within and we should become more like him, as Paul said, not me but Christ in me.

 

[marhig]

There is a lot to this topic, wouldn't you agree? I mean, there is a lot to consider, there is lots of biblical passages, and the Bible isn't even a book...it is a library...a bunch of books, and we really shouldn't be coming to conclusions until/unless we have looked at everything the Bible has to say about a topic...not just some things it has to say. So, I don't know, there is a lot to it, I guess.

One of the things for me is that it is pretty clear that the Jewish leaders wanted Him killed because He claimed equality with God. (John 19:7, for example).

Now, just because Jesus claimed to be God doesn't mean that He is.

But who walks around claiming to be God? Today or back then or anytime?

It seems like only crazy people or liars.

If Jesus claimed to be God and wasn't and He knew He wasn't He was a big fat liar.

If Jesus claimed to be God and wasn't but He didn't know that He wasn't He was a crazy person.

But when I read the New Testament about His life and the things He said and did, I have to conclude...no way.
He doesn't sound crazy or like a liar.

Some people claim that He was just a good moral teacher. But good moral teachers don't lie about who they are and they are not crazy.

So I think the best explanation is that He is who He claimed to be.

Jesus is God.

God bless you, marhig.

The Jewish leaders claimed he was God, but Jesus corrected them and said because I say I am the son of God"

John 10

Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON OF GOD?


And in John 19:7 the Jews said that he ought to die because they say, he made himself the son of God, not that he made himself God.

John 19:7

The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

I have never ever denied that Jesus is the son of God, but that he is God Almighty. Because God Almighty is also the God as father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and God has exalted him, and put him over everything, he has set him at his right hand, and given him authority over everything in heaven and in Earth, this shows us that the father has authority over Christ, because he has set him over everything, and that he is his God, and Paul also said that the head of Christ is God. And it says in the Bible that Christ Jesus is under subjection to the father whom he himself also says is his God.

What do you think of the verses where Jesus himself said that God is his God?

 

[Stevo1]

Actually we are told that Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God and that the fullness of God dwells in Him.

Yes your right but that doesn't mean he is God.
All of the prophets were spoken to by God and they obeyed that word of God that doesn't make them the Almighty God.
The prophets were call out from God were as Jesus had him from the beginning and was full of his spirit.

And the perfect mediator between God and man would be, well, God in the flesh of a man.

Again yes God was in Him he was the perfect mediator not because he is God but because he could be trusted, as God said this is my beloved son in whom i am well pleased, unlike us who are sinners so we need to be more like him to please God.
This can only be done through Christ by the holy spirit so we must be born of the spirit and get rid of the old life and put on the new.

 

[oatmeal]

Sons have the same nature as their Fathers. Therefore, God's Son is...God.



I don't think so. Because Jesus tells us how we can do those greater works. He tells us in the context of the surrounding passages.

He tells us that we will do them IF we believe in Him, and that if we ask in His name...HE will do it.

It isn't us doing it at all but Him working through us.

So no, we won't be raising ourselves from the dead and 1 Thessalonians 4 doesn't say that we will.

Here is I Thessalonians 4:16 for your reading pleasure and edification:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

what does the emboldened words say?

a. the dead in Christ shall rise first

b. the dead in Christ shall be raised from the dead by God first

Since all Christians are sons of God by seed, I Peter 1:23, again here it is for your spiritual pleasure and edification:

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We are born again by seed, not by adoption.

Jesus was conceived by divine conception.

How were we conceived resulting in our being born again according to I Peter?

a. by the acts of our parents in sexual intercourse

b. by the act of God by the word of God

Is God's word the word of men or the word of God?

Is God's word divine or carnal?

Is God's word spiritual words or carnal knowledge?

Were we born again by carnal regeneration or divine regeneration?

Are we sons of God because of God begatting us or by some other means?

We are as much sons of God as Jesus Christ is the son of God

There are differences between Jesus Christ and us but we are as much sons as he is.

In truth, we are joint heirs with Christ. Who is the benefactor that gives the inheritance to both Jesus Christ and us? The Father. He is the one with the heritage to give. To whom does The Father give? to His sons, Jesus Christ and us.

So, you say that God's sons have the same nature as God, since we are God's son, then by your statement all sons of God, including us, are God.

Is that what you are saying?

Or did you leave something out?

 

[keypurr]

Sons have the same nature as their fathers.

The son of a man is a man....the Son of God...is God.

Again, God is the title of a position.

The son of the President is not the President.


Sent from my iPad using TOL

 

[keypurr]

There is overwhelming evidence that he isn't, there's so many verses that they are everywhere in the new testament. Even Jesus himself clearly says the God is his God. Why don't people believe him when he says this?

Amen, he said his Father s greater than all.


Sent from my iPad using TOL

 

[Interplanner]

John 10:18 KJV -

The question is clarified by the accomplishment of justification from our sins. God raised him in honor of accomplishing this. He was enthroned for doing so, which the adulterous and murderous King David foresaw in Ps 16, quoted in Acts 2 about the resurrection.

 

[jamie]

John didn't quite see it that way when He saw Him. John fell at His feet as though dead.

John was human at the time, not yet born of the Spirit.

 

[jamie]

The difference is that Jesus is the "only begotten" Son of God.

Yes, the Father only impregnated one woman in order to create the Son of Man.

However, in the spiritual sense who is our Father?

 

[jamie]

Again, God is the title of a position.

The son of the President is not the President.

That's like saying the son of the father is not the father.

There is only one president at a time so the son of the president is not the president by definition.

:duh: