Deaths from gunfire USofA

Crucible

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I've done none of that. I have suggested a serious of steps that could be tried without banning weapons but would work to reducing the death toll.

Others have commented that they are good suggestions, but there has been no engagement from you.

You have offered nothing but the bloody status quo and a series of over generalised pathetic insults. Who is really the blowhard here?

I didn't mean you, I meant them in a general sense. They act exactly as I stated, and it's ridiculous.

Beyond states limiting the production of guns, there isn't much much else that can be done. The 2nd Amendment makes it impossible for federal gun control on any substantial level, or for states to do much more than some already have. Pennsylvania and California have the toughest laws on guns, and it's still easy to obtain a firearm.

The only way America will ever see real gun control is if the 2nd Amendment is nullified, which requires more than simply a majority vote- amendments are designed to be immune to the spasms of societal bias. It takes a 3/4 vote across the board and the green light by 38 states.
 

Truster

New member
The second amendment makes owning a gun a right. Having the right to do something doesn’t make it mandatory.
 

Crucible

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The second amendment makes owning a gun a right. Having the right to do something doesn’t make it mandatory.

If it were mandatory, we'd be better off. It's because so many people have grown skittish of guns that the issue ever arose in the first place. You have a criminal with a gun and a bunch of people who not only don't like to have a gun but yet act like the world is some safe paradise.
 

Quetzal

New member
If it were mandatory, we'd be better off. It's because so many people have grown skittish of guns that the issue ever arose in the first place. You have a criminal with a gun and a bunch of people who not only don't like to have a gun and yet act like the world is some safe paradise.
Determent is a risky gamble.
 

gcthomas

New member
The only way America will ever see real gun control is if the 2nd Amendment is nullified, which requires more than simply a majority vote- amendments are designed to be immune to the spasms of societal bias. It takes a 3/4 vote across the board and the green light by 38 states.

It is less the constitution than politics that prevents gun control but I accept your general comments.

And isn't it 2/3 majority of both houses and 2/3 of states (34) supporting for amendments to pass?
 

Nick M

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According to a Gallup Poll the most popular reason for gun ownership is protection.

Of course. This is why the left wants the populace disarmed. So they can enforce the liberal utopia.
 

Truster

New member
If it were mandatory, we'd be better off. It's because so many people have grown skittish of guns that the issue ever arose in the first place. You have a criminal with a gun and a bunch of people who not only don't like to have a gun but yet act like the world is some safe paradise.

You might have a gun, but you have no peace.
 

Crucible

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It is less the constitution than politics that prevents gun control but I accept your general comments.

And isn't it 2/3 majority of both houses and 2/3 of states (34) supporting for amendments to pass?

There's a majority vote (51), a super majority vote (67), and a supreme vote (75)

There has to be a 2/3 vote for an amendment to be considered. The supreme vote is what it takes to ratify it.
 
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musterion

Well-known member
The only way America will ever see real gun control is if the 2nd Amendment is nullified, which requires more than simply a majority vote- amendments are designed to be immune to the spasms of societal bias. It takes a 3/4 vote across the board and the green light by 38 states.

And that would be the easy part. Then would come immediate enforcement by confiscation, which would require foreign muscle.
 

GuySmiley

Well-known member
You can think what you like, but it would clearly lower the homicide rate by lowing the number of guns out there. And by training and scrutinizing those who have them legally, and by punishing those who get caught with them illegally. The idea is to keep the guns away from the people who are the most likely to misuse them. Criminals will always disobey the laws. But that doesn't mean we should have no laws, because the criminals are citizens before they became criminals. And the laws do prevent many citizens from becoming criminals.
Your ideas target the kind of people who want to be law abiding. Yes fewer people will jump through the hoops you want to create. The people who decide not to own a gun because of the inconveniences you create aren't the people who are going to rob a liquor store and shoot the clerk.

Your ideas will make very little difference in stopping real crime. And your ideas could harm the weakest and poorest in society who might defend themselves in neighborhoods where they really need to be able to.

gcthomas's ideas actually target criminals.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Your ideas target the kind of people who want to be law abiding. Yes fewer people will jump through the hoops you want to create. The people who decide not to own a gun because of the inconveniences you create aren't the people who are going to rob a liquor store and shoot the clerk.
The laws target everyone. That's how laws work. They keep most of us from becoming criminals. And fewer guns in circulation will mean fewer criminals will have them. And because guns are so incredibly effecting at killing people, fewer people will be killed by criminals, by accident, or by any other human means.
Your ideas will make very little difference in stopping real crime.
You keep repeating that, because it's what you really want to believe. But all reason and logic and evidence shows otherwise. No one can convince a closed mind, so you will remain unconvinced. And this is the real problem: how do we topple this sacred false idol of unrestricted deadly weapons, when the idol-worshippers minds are completely closed to reason and reality?[/QUOTE]
Your ideas will make very little difference in stopping real crime. And your ideas could harm the weakest and poorest in society who might defend themselves in neighborhoods where they really need to be able to.

gcthomas's ideas actually target criminals.
The problem is that the criminals are regular citizens until they shoot someone. Targeting them after they have become criminals will not stop the killing. To do that, we have to target the POTENTIAL criminals among us BEFORE they shoot someone. And that requires blanket oversight, and regulation.

There is no other way.
 

GuySmiley

Well-known member
The laws target everyone. That's how laws work. They keep most of us from becoming criminals. And fewer guns in circulation will mean fewer criminals will have them. And because guns are so incredibly effecting at killing people, fewer people will be killed by criminals, by accident, or by any other human means.
All you have to do is show that fewer guns means less homicide. Show me that in all cases across the board high percentages of gun ownership is the cause of homicide. Then I'll agree that our strategy ought to be to lower gun ownership.

You keep repeating that, because it's what you really want to believe. But all reason and logic and evidence shows otherwise. No one can convince a closed mind, so you will remain unconvinced. And this is the real problem: how do we topple this sacred false idol of unrestricted deadly weapons, when the idol-worshippers minds are completely closed to reason and reality?
How long have you been able to read minds? Do you have a message for me from my dead father? Do you actually own a crystal ball?

Evidence says that in rural areas or small cities with higher % of gun ownership, homicide rates are lower than big cities.

Evidence shows that certain races are far more likely to commit homicide, even when gun ownership is lower by percentage. Before your automatic liberal programming kicks in, I'll say that I believe those reasons are economic and cultural, not intrinsic to race.

Evidence says that many countries with lower percentage of gun ownership have far higher homicide rates than the US. Not the handpicked countries popular in this debate, but nonetheless, many countries. Guess what those countries have in common typically? Cultural and economic problems, wow, where have we heard of that before?

Guess what I conclude? I think cultural and economic conditions cause higher homicide, not levels of gun ownership. I also conclude that your ideas wont help.
 

Crucible

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Evidence shows that certain races are far more likely to commit homicide, even when gun ownership is lower by percentage. Before your automatic liberal programming kicks in, I'll say that I believe those reasons are economic and cultural, not intrinsic to race.

You mean black people in the hood.

White people can't just tell a simple truth without being branded something, but Black Lives Matter can threaten to kill people and burn things down without consequence.
And that's sad. Sad that a ethereal entity like political correctness- something completely imaginary and of the mindset of society- is what is putting it on a crutch.
 

Quetzal

New member
Evidence shows that certain races are far more likely to commit homicide, even when gun ownership is lower by percentage. Before your automatic liberal programming kicks in, I'll say that I believe those reasons are economic and cultural, not intrinsic to race.
:up: Important distinction.
 

patrick jane

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All you have to do is show that fewer guns means less homicide. Show me that in all cases across the board high percentages of gun ownership is the cause of homicide. Then I'll agree that our strategy ought to be to lower gun ownership.


How long have you been able to read minds? Do you have a message for me from my dead father? Do you actually own a crystal ball?

Evidence says that in rural areas or small cities with higher % of gun ownership, homicide rates are lower than big cities.

Evidence shows that certain races are far more likely to commit homicide, even when gun ownership is lower by percentage. Before your automatic liberal programming kicks in, I'll say that I believe those reasons are economic and cultural, not intrinsic to race.

Evidence says that many countries with lower percentage of gun ownership have far higher homicide rates than the US. Not the handpicked countries popular in this debate, but nonetheless, many countries. Guess what those countries have in common typically? Cultural and economic problems, wow, where have we heard of that before?

Guess what I conclude? I think cultural and economic conditions cause higher homicide, not levels of gun ownership. I also conclude that your ideas wont help.


I concur
 

GuySmiley

Well-known member
You mean black people in the hood.

White people can't just tell a simple truth without being branded something, but Black Lives Matter can threaten to kill people and burn things down without consequence.
And that's sad. Sad that a ethereal entity like political correctness- something completely imaginary and of the mindset of society- is what is putting it on a crutch.
True. But I don't believe its is because they are black. So the message I want to send isn't that they are black, so its not important to say. In fact to get the correct message across, its important not to say.
 

GuySmiley

Well-known member
One of the most frustrating things when trying to look at facts about gun control is the shifting comparisons made. This is a good example:

National Review published this article showing no correlation between gun ownership and homicide rates in the US:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/427967/san-bernardino-shooting-guns-homicide-statistics

Then Vox answers that article with this one saying they didn't control for other variables before saying there is no correlation. However, to show there is a correlation, they shift the discussion to gun ownership vs. gun-related homicide. It's no longer the same topic and they didn't answer anything.

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2015/12/8/9870240/gun-ownership-deaths-homicides

Another popular one I see around the internet is making the conversation about gun-deaths. Gun deaths include suicides and accidents. It makes sense that with a massive gun ban and confiscation program gun-deaths and gun-homicides will go down. But what does it matter if those are just replaced by other means?

To me it makes sense to keep the conversation on homicide.
 
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