Cruel Parenting

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frugalmom

Night Elf
Yesterday while visiting another forum, the topic of discipline came up. Someone posted this link and recommended the book it describes titled "To Train Up a Child" by Michael and Debi Pearl. I had heard of this book before, and this link allows you to read chapter one.

All I can say is, one chapter of this nonsense was enough!

These people advocated having training sessions by putting desirable objects in the child's reach for the purpose of using a switch on the baby's hand (if they don't respond to no) to try and teach it not to touch desirable objects.

They also talked about having training sessions in order to train a baby to come when called, which would end up in swatting the baby with a switch if the baby didn't listen. This would be done by putting a child alone in a room with a desirable toy - again - another cruel method for the sole purpose of setting the child up to fail to administer training. The first few times, if the baby didn't come on demand, the father would go over and give the 10 or 12 month old an "explanation" of what is expected of him. HA - I can just imagine someone being dumb enough to try this and then have the baby look at you as if it's thinking "What are you talking about?" Many babies aren't even walking yet at that age. The book called this "booty camp" - although the example they gave was for 10 - 12 month olds. ("Toddlers" the book called them)

I'm not saying I'm against discipline, but a baby who doesn't understand, and an older toddler or child who is trying to manipulate their parents and misbehave are very different situations. A young baby just wants it's needs met and is not capable of trying to manipulate anyone.

Newborn training

OK this is the year 2004 for crying out loud. Surely by the time the 90's came around, the "spoil that baby" myth was debunked. I thought almost everyone knew by now that you can't spoil a baby by meeting it's needs and loving it! A newborn's wants are it's needs, yet this book warns against the mother picking up the crying child from the crib and encourages letting the newborn cry.

Children are precious gifts from the Lord and should not be treated like animals, or worse. A mother has to go against her motherly instinct to and harden her heart to ignore a crying baby.

I visit alot of forums that have to do with parenting. A while back, a new mother was bragging how she was "sleep training" her new baby boy. She apparently thought that parenting is a day job, and would confine her baby all alone to the crib from 6 PM to 6 AM. The poor child must have been scared to death. She did mention that she goes in there once during the 12 hour period to change his diaper. :rolleyes:

That is one example of many cruel parenting blunders I have read about by visiting forums. The way some people treat their children makes me sick.

Studies have debunked the "spoiling" myth and proven that babies whose needs are met and who are held alot and loved, grow to be independant, happy and secure. (I just love when it takes a study to prove what should be common sense)

Another thing is, a newborn's stomach is the size of a cherry. They need to be fed every 2 or 3 hours. Some people don't want to have to deal with their children and don't feed them on demand. That is so cruel. And the sad thing is, there are books out there encouraging people to treat their children this way. Some of the authors claim to be Christians - yet I know God doesn't want us to neglect our children. It's so sad to read the stories of babies getting dehydrated, and failing to thrive and gain weight, because the parent's read some bogus book by someone claiming to be an expert and a Christian. Do a search for Ezzo's babywise if you aren't familiar and you will see what I mean.
 
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ShadowMaid

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You're right Frugalmom. That's nonsense.

You're child should be fed every 2 to 3 hours... even during the night. Yeah, that means you have to get up... and you don't get as much sleep. That's okay. Because you'll live. :)

Yeah, kids should get spanked. But it's true that you can't expect a baby (i.e. a 10-12 months old... we still call our 2 year old a baby) to understand what's expected of him.... or to understand what you're talking about when you're talking about what's expected of him. That probably won't work. The baby is just starting to understand words, and what they do. They'll have NO idea what you're talking about.

I don't believe that you can just leave something out for the child to grab. And he/she is totally free to do so... just so that you can swat at them.

You do that, and it's like saying, "Here you can play with this... but you can't play with this." The baby isn't going to understand. As a matter of fact, it might even have an opposite effect. As I've seen with many kids. It confuses them. That doesn't help matters any.

There's my 2 cents. Not much. More of common sense... I should hope. And if it isn't, it's just some things I've learned over 5 years.
 

Poly

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Great thread, frugalmom. I agree with what you said. That is some very cruel punishment. When you set up the desirable object for the child it sends a confusing message. The child starts out with full trust in the parent. If he sees his parent put the object in front of him and then swats him for reaching for it (hmm, kind of reminds me of the Calvinist view of God....sorry, couldn't resist) it will send out a terrible confusing message and destroy his trust in that parent at an early age. And concerning picking up the crying infant, I regret that I listened to people tell me not to do this. I went against my instinct with my oldest 2 kids because other people told me it wasn't good to do. Fortunately with the rest of my kids I stopped listening to others on how to raise my kids. Now when they reached toddler age there were a few times when nothing seemed to satisfy them and I knew that they were just overly cranky, tired and simply in a bad mood. Even picking them up didn't subside their crying when they were like this so I would just put them in bed to take a nap. But little ones simply have no other way to tell us that they need something. It is very cruel to not tend to them the way we were meant to when they are expressing their need for us.
 

erinmarie

New member
I know alot about Ezzo and his crapola!
Someone OUGHT to do something about that lying scumbag and his crazy wife...and breathe, erinmarie!!!!!!!

Actually I've nursed both of my daughters on demand and through the night and it never really seemed to be of any consequence. I don't know why there's all of these mother's out there who insist on putting their newborns on schedules....is it just so they'll sleep through the night??? Are these mothers so lazy they don't want to take care of the babies they just carried in their womb for 9 months!
Poo on them! Nurse your babies, ladies!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO IT!!!!!!
hahahaha :ha:

Anyways, about newborns and discipline, there's a section in the Pre-Babywise pamphlet "Preperation for Parenting" that warns never to let the baby linger at the breast, and a small smack on the leg should remind him/her so they won't continue to suckle after they're done eating!!!!!
IT'S PURE INSANITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

frugalmom

Night Elf
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

You're right Frugalmom. That's nonsense.

You're child should be fed every 2 to 3 hours... even during the night. Yeah, that means you have to get up... and you don't get as much sleep. That's okay. Because you'll live. :)

Yeah, kids should get spanked. But it's true that you can't expect a baby (i.e. a 10-12 months old... we still call our 2 year old a baby) to understand what's expected of him.... or to understand what you're talking about when you're talking about what's expected of him. That probably won't work. The baby is just starting to understand words, and what they do. They'll have NO idea what you're talking about.

I don't believe that you can just leave something out for the child to grab. And he/she is totally free to do so... just so that you can swat at them.

You do that, and it's like saying, "Here you can play with this... but you can't play with this." The baby isn't going to understand. As a matter of fact, it might even have an opposite effect. As I've seen with many kids. It confuses them. That doesn't help matters any.

There's my 2 cents. Not much. More of common sense... I should hope. And if it isn't, it's just some things I've learned over 5 years.

Great post. :thumb: It's scary that people go against common sense and believe the myths out there that are nothing less than bogus junk. The children are the ones who suffer. :(
 

frugalmom

Night Elf
Originally posted by Poly

Great thread, frugalmom. I agree with what you said. That is some very cruel punishment. When you set up the desirable object for the child it sends a confusing message. The child starts out with full trust in the parent. If he sees his parent put the object in front of him and then swats him for reaching for it (hmm, kind of reminds me of the Calvinist view of God....sorry, couldn't resist) it will send out a terrible confusing message and destroy his trust in that parent at an early age. And concerning picking up the crying infant, I regret that I listened to people tell me not to do this. I went against my instinct with my oldest 2 kids because other people told me it wasn't good to do. Fortunately with the rest of my kids I stopped listening to others on how to raise my kids. Now when they reached toddler age there were a few times when nothing seemed to satisfy them and I knew that they were just overly cranky, tired and simply in a bad mood. Even picking them up didn't subside their crying when they were like this so I would just put them in bed to take a nap. But little ones simply have no other way to tell us that they need something. It is very cruel to not tend to them the way we were meant to when they are expressing their need for us.

:thumb: I have to :shut: in public sometimes because I'll see things like a young mother and baby in a store with what appears to be the grandmother (I saw this a while back), and the newborn will be in one of those carrier things in the shopping cart crying. When the mother went to try and pick up and console her child, like she was supposed to, the grandmother proceeded to tell the mother that the child was fine and to let it cry. :down:
 

frugalmom

Night Elf
Originally posted by erinmarie

Actually I've nursed both of my daughters on demand and through the night and it never really seemed to be of any consequence. I don't know why there's all of these mother's out there who insist on putting their newborns on schedules....is it just so they'll sleep through the night??? Are these mothers so lazy they don't want to take care of the babies they just carried in their womb for 9 months!
Poo on them! Nurse your babies, ladies!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO IT!!!!!!
hahahaha :ha:

They are so selfish. Most of them think that if they don't get 8 or 9 hours of straight sleep that they are being inconvenienced and controlled by the child. :kookoo: At least, that is what I have gathered from reading other forums.

Originally posted by erinmarie
Anyways, about newborns and discipline, there's a section in the Pre-Babywise pamphlet "Preperation for Parenting" that warns never to let the baby linger at the breast, and a small smack on the leg should remind him/her so they won't continue to suckle after they're done eating!!!!!
IT'S PURE INSANITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:mad: :mad: :mad:
 

frugalmom

Night Elf
Originally posted by frugalmom

Yesterday while visiting another forum, the topic of discipline came up. Someone posted this link and recommended the book it describes titled "To Train Up a Child" by Michael and Debi Pearl. I had heard of this book before, and this link allows you to read chapter one.

Something else to add - if you read the first chapter through this link, you will see that on pg 8 they start talking about newborns not wanting to go into the crib and encourages the mother not to give in to the "self-centered" newborn, but to let it cry to learn that crying is counterproductive.

What some horrible advice. It's crucial to meet the newborn's needs. What if the poor little baby has something wrong with it? If a mother has hardened her heart and trained herself to ignore it's crying, how is she going to know if something serious is ever wrong with her baby?

And another thing.....

A child who doesn't go to mom after it gets a knot on it's head from an accident with the rocking horse is not something to brag about. That child has learned that it can't count on mom to comfort it if it get's a bump, bruise, or in this case a knot. :doh: How sad.
 

ShadowMaid

New member
Originally posted by frugalmom

Something else to add - if you read the first chapter through this link, you will see that on pg 8 they start talking about newborns not wanting to go into the crib and encourages the mother not to give in to the "self-centered" newborn, but to let it cry to learn that crying is counterproductive.

What some horrible advice. It's crucial to meet the newborn's needs. What if the poor little baby has something wrong with it? If a mother has hardened her heart and trained herself to ignore it's crying, how is she going to know if something serious is ever wrong with her baby?

And another thing.....

A child who doesn't go to mom after it gets a knot on it's head from an accident with the rocking horse is not something to brag about. That child has learned that it can't count on mom to comfort it if it get's a bump, bruise, or in this case a knot. :doh: How sad.

:cry: That is very sad. :cry:
 

Crow

New member
Cruelty aside, "training" kids to quit nursing through the night seems like a lot of work when they will sleep through the night on their own by the time they are "trained." My nephew did at about 10 months. The times between wanting to be fed got gradually longer as the little hog began to eat cereals and stuff and drink more at a time.
 

frugalmom

Night Elf
I put this in the back alley, so I might as well list a few more parenting blunders I have seen or read about.

Here's one: I really don't understand the baby carrier thing. I don't mean a sling, but I'm talking about the car seat type carriers that are sort of heavy. I have watched people on TV and in real life lug those things around with a baby in it. Why double the weight just to lug that bulky thing around by the handle?? It would be far lighter and more comfortable just to carry the baby and the baby will feel better in it's parent's arms too. You won't have a free hand either way you do it, so the carrier idea must be from the debunked "spoil that baby" school of thought. :kookoo: :kookoo:

Another parenting blunder - I heard this woman's story through another forum.....She and her husband had tried for years to get pregnant, and she finally did through IVF and had twins. Well then, she brags about how she's not going to spoil them. She keeps them in a swing most of the day and feeds them (formula no doubt) through one of those - oh heck what do they call them - one of those self feeding bottle things that has the hose thing on it so the parent doesn't have to hold the baby or the bottle. :madmad: Then when it gets evening she puts them in the crib so that her holding them is kept at a minimal. :madmad: :madmad: :kookoo:

This is what I'm talking about that makes me so angry I have to vent!!!! Those poor babies!!!! And most of it can be traced back to the terrible spoiling myth. If you confront them with the facts, alot of times they will tell you you are right, but when it comes down to it, their own selfishness and needs are put ahead of their children, and the children are once again the ones who suffer. :cry:

I hope people who write books giving this cruel, terrible advice don't make a single red cent on them.
 

erinmarie

New member
Originally posted by frugalmom

I put this in the back alley, so I might as well list a few more parenting blunders I have seen or read about.

Here's one: I really don't understand the baby carrier thing. I don't mean a sling, but I'm talking about the car seat type carriers that are sort of heavy. I have watched people on TV and in real life lug those things around with a baby in it. Why double the weight just to lug that bulky thing around by the handle?? It would be far lighter and more comfortable just to carry the baby and the baby will feel better in it's parent's arms too. You won't have a free hand either way you do it, so the carrier idea must be from the debunked "spoil that baby" school of thought. :kookoo: :kookoo:

Another parenting blunder - I heard this woman's story through another forum.....She and her husband had tried for years to get pregnant, and she finally did through IVF and had twins. Well then, she brags about how she's not going to spoil them. She keeps them in a swing most of the day and feeds them (formula no doubt) through one of those - oh heck what do they call them - one of those self feeding bottle things that has the hose thing on it so the parent doesn't have to hold the baby or the bottle. :madmad: Then when it gets evening she puts them in the crib so that her holding them is kept at a minimal. :madmad: :madmad: :kookoo:

This is what I'm talking about that makes me so angry I have to vent!!!! Those poor babies!!!! And most of it can be traced back to the terrible spoiling myth. If you confront them with the facts, alot of times they will tell you you are right, but when it comes down to it, their own selfishness and needs are put ahead of their children, and the children are once again the ones who suffer. :cry:

I hope people who write books giving this cruel, terrible advice don't make a single red cent on them.

Regarding the baby carrier thing, I did use one, and although they are unwieldly, they are helpful in some situations. My first daughter I held most of the time, and she was sometimes happy to sit in the carrier when we were visiting at a family members house, so she could watch people pass and play with her from a different angle. She mostly slept in my arms, but I do have a wooden cradle that is a rocker beside my bed and I would put her in it if I had something to do when she was asleep, or if I was watching a movie with my husband in the downstairs.

My second daughter was very calm and sleepy, so sometimes when she would fall asleep in the car, we would just use the carrier so as not to jar her by moving her, and she would take most of her naps in it. For some reason she is uncomfortable being held for too long, so when she's done nursing she fusses and stretches and kicks!! Funny little turkey:D

I know people who try for years to get pregnant, then when they finally do they're so wrapped up in themselves they don't breastfeed, they don't sleep-share and they complain all the time about crying, lack of sleep and the price of formula!:doh:
 

ShadowMaid

New member
Originally posted by frugalmom

Another parenting blunder - I heard this woman's story through another forum.....She and her husband had tried for years to get pregnant, and she finally did through IVF and had twins. Well then, she brags about how she's not going to spoil them. She keeps them in a swing most of the day and feeds them (formula no doubt) through one of those - oh heck what do they call them - one of those self feeding bottle things that has the hose thing on it so the parent doesn't have to hold the baby or the bottle. :madmad: Then when it gets evening she puts them in the crib so that her holding them is kept at a minimal. :madmad: :madmad: :kookoo:

I hope people who write books giving this cruel, terrible advice don't make a single red cent on them.

Yeah, that makes me mad too. I have a feeling that the whole "mother children" relationship is going to... not be there quite fully. Maybe I'm just over-reacting, because that sort of thing makes me mad.

And the authors, yeah, they probably do make money out of them. :nono:
 

frugalmom

Night Elf
Originally posted by erinmarie

Regarding the baby carrier thing, I did use one, and although they are unwieldly, they are helpful in some situations. My first daughter I held most of the time, and she was sometimes happy to sit in the carrier when we were visiting at a family members house, so she could watch people pass and play with her from a different angle. She mostly slept in my arms, but I do have a wooden cradle that is a rocker beside my bed and I would put her in it if I had something to do when she was asleep, or if I was watching a movie with my husband in the downstairs.

My second daughter was very calm and sleepy, so sometimes when she would fall asleep in the car, we would just use the carrier so as not to jar her by moving her, and she would take most of her naps in it. For some reason she is uncomfortable being held for too long, so when she's done nursing she fusses and stretches and kicks!! Funny little turkey:D

Erinmarie - I agree that they can be useful. I was talking about people who use them when they don't need to, because they took Aunt BobbyJo's advice that the baby would get spoiled if it is held. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. Maybe I shouldn't post when I'm sleepy. :D

I heard one woman complaining how heavy it was to lug the carrier around with her infant in it, and she didn't even need the carrier.
 

frugalmom

Night Elf
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

Yeah, that makes me mad too. I have a feeling that the whole "mother children" relationship is going to... not be there quite fully. Maybe I'm just over-reacting, because that sort of thing makes me mad.

And the authors, yeah, they probably do make money out of them. :nono:

:shadowmd: - I don't think you are overreacting. Babies are blessings from the Lord and should not be treated like they are animals, or worse. They are helpless and deserve to be loved and taken care of. Detachment parenting is cruel and unnatural.

It's nice to see people who have some common sense. I occasionally visit other forums and it is sad to read how some people parent. :help:
 

ShadowMaid

New member
Originally posted by frugalmom

:shadowmd: - I don't think you are overreacting. Babies are blessings from the Lord and should not be treated like they are animals, or worse. They are helpless and deserve to be loved and taken care of. Detachment parenting is cruel and unnatural.

It's nice to see people who have some common sense. I occasionally visit other forums and it is sad to read how some people parent. :help:

It is really sad to see other parents, and their method of parenting. I was always get upset to see parents either get super mad, or not really mad at all when their child/ren act up in a way their not supposed to.

One thing that also doesn't make sense, is that some parents don't want to hurt thier child, so they don't want to spank them. I've been over this been over this a few times with our neighbor, that if you want to help them, bring them up right. Don't reward them for their bad beheviour. Or bargain with them. That's generally not a good idea. If you want to keep them from getting hurt, spank them. And I don't mean, put something their not supposed to touch in front of them, so that you can spank them. That's bad. I mean, when they disobey, spank them.

And the newborn, our family normally picks up the crying baby. We check him. See if he needs changed. Or if he's hurt in some way. And we feed, or try to feed, him. Picking him up to check him, every 15 or less minutes, is okay! Checking a baby, is actually a good idea. So it is extreamly sad, when mothers harden their hearts to their own children. It's depressing.
 

frugalmom

Night Elf
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

It is really sad to see other parents, and their method of parenting. I was always get upset to see parents either get super mad, or not really mad at all when their child/ren act up in a way their not supposed to.

One thing that also doesn't make sense, is that some parents don't want to hurt thier child, so they don't want to spank them. I've been over this been over this a few times with our neighbor, that if you want to help them, bring them up right. Don't reward them for their bad beheviour. Or bargain with them. That's generally not a good idea. If you want to keep them from getting hurt, spank them. And I don't mean, put something their not supposed to touch in front of them, so that you can spank them. That's bad. I mean, when they disobey, spank them.

And the newborn, our family normally picks up the crying baby. We check him. See if he needs changed. Or if he's hurt in some way. And we feed, or try to feed, him. Picking him up to check him, every 15 or less minutes, is okay! Checking a baby, is actually a good idea. So it is extreamly sad, when mothers harden their hearts to their own children. It's depressing.

So true! It is extremely sad, Shadowmaid. Motherly instinct tells you to tend to the baby, to love and take care of the tiny being. I hate when I see women in public ignoring their screaming, desperate child. They have trained themselves to be that way, and they think being cruel is training the baby. :doh: :down:
 

ShadowMaid

New member
Originally posted by frugalmom

So true! It is extremely sad, Shadowmaid. Motherly instinct tells you to tend to the baby, to love and take care of the tiny being. I hate when I see women in public ignoring their screaming, desperate child. They have trained themselves to be that way, and they think being cruel is training the baby. :doh: :down:

Dad tells me that women now adays, are "insane". You ask, 1+1=? And they'll tell you 1, or 3, or some other bizzare number that doesn't fit the logic. (Not literally, but that's kind of what their response is like to a question... certain questions.) They were taught that's the right way to deal with the situation, even if it's not right. That's the way they were taught. And because they were taught like so, they don't bother to go with logic, but to just go the "right" way.

I did my best to explain this. If it doesn't make any sense, that's okay. I tried to explain it like Dad did.
 

frugalmom

Night Elf
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

Dad tells me that women now adays, are "insane". You ask, 1+1=? And they'll tell you 1, or 3, or some other bizzare number that doesn't fit the logic. (Not literally, but that's kind of what their response is like to a question... certain questions.) They were taught that's the right way to deal with the situation, even if it's not right. That's the way they were taught. And because they were taught like so, they don't bother to go with logic, but to just go the "right" way.

I did my best to explain this. If it doesn't make any sense, that's okay. I tried to explain it like Dad did.

I understand. Some people would rather keep doing things the wrong way instead of rationally thinking it over and making a better decision.

I was raised by people like that, and had a lousy, chaotic childhood as a result.

To all
Just curious -
Did anyone read the first chapter of that terrible book through the link in post 1?
 

ShadowMaid

New member
Originally posted by frugalmom

I understand. Some people would rather keep doing things the wrong way instead of rationally thinking it over and making a better decision.

I was raised by people like that, and had a lousy, chaotic childhood as a result.

To all
Just curious -
Did anyone read the first chapter of that terrible book through the link in post 1?

No, I can't stand those type of things... well, maybe I could, but you'd have to put up with the creature that emerges afterwards. ;)
 
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