Church government is not hierarchical

[iouae]

If the Puritans had believed that, there would be no America for you to be able to say this freely. It was just what you are castigating that held them together and developed the sense of community (in contrast to anarchical individualism) and keeping one another held to a higher standard and submitting to authority that enabled law and order to arise (seemingly) out of nowhere. Anarchy and totalitarianism are cut from the same rebellious cloth.

Maybe I misunderstood Acts 15. Would you like to explain it better?

 

[nikolai_42]

Maybe I misunderstood Acts 15. Would you like to explain it better?

You used Acts 15 to claim that the Christian church knows nothing of hierarchy. The problem is that these are apostles - all church planters who would have the very authority you seem to be denigrating. The problem is you seem to equate obedience to those in (spiritual) authority as necessarily entailing superiority and inferiority. This is not a question of forms, but of superintendency. How one manages ones office. The Lord certainly didn't set up a heirarchy of bishops, but He did set authority in the church. The outward titles and "pulling rank" that I suspect has you reacting is not the same as the authority in scripture. But there is - without a doubt - authority in the church given to men respected for their wisdom, humility, gravity and spiritual depth.

The Puritans were an example of that. While the scriptures were the ultimate authority of all, they all also deferred to positions of authority that were generally agreed upon by the assembly.

 

[brewmama]

Originally Posted by brewmama
"So you ignore all the epistles from various Apostles to their churches, as in hierarchy giving them instruction?"

Chrys and Brewmama

I believe in sola scriptura. So I take what the Apostles wrote to the churches as the ultimate authority over my life. Do you?

No you don't. You've argued against doctrines you don't like that are espoused by the Apostles many times. And make up others that aren't scriptural, such as sola scriptura. Case in point: hierarchy.

 

[iouae]

No you don't. You've argued against doctrines you don't like that are espoused by the Apostles many times. And make up others that aren't scriptural, such as sola scriptura. Case in point: hierarchy.

Where did the Apostles espouse Hierarchy?

That is what you assume, but where in scripture do they endorse hierarchy?

When the disciples were arguing about who was the greatest, Christ washed their feet to show that in Christianity, to be a servant is to be the greatest.

Does a servant rule over the person who's feet he washes?

Christ did not want hierarchy, where those at the top are considered "the greatest".

 

[brewmama]

Where did the Apostles espouse Hierarchy?

That is what you assume, but where in scripture do they endorse hierarchy?

When the disciples were arguing about who was the greatest, Christ washed their feet to show that in Christianity, to be a servant is to be the greatest.

Does a servant rule over the person who's feet he washes?

Christ did not want hierarchy, where those at the top are considered "the greatest".

By your questions you prove that you have no concept of what hierarchy and authority even mean, especially in the Church.

 

[HisServant]

By your questions you prove that you have no concept of what hierarchy and authority even mean, especially in the Church.

He has a biblical concept of what authority should be... you have a Roman Catholic one.... the two will never meet.

In scripture, the congregation has the obligation to cast out false teachers and would be apostles..... the Catholic hierarchy circumvented that.

 

[brewmama]

He has a biblical concept of what authority should be... you have a Roman Catholic one.... the two will never meet.

In scripture, the congregation has the obligation to cast out false teachers and would be apostles..... the Catholic hierarchy circumvented that.

I'm not Catholic. Once again your ignorance is harming your argument.

 

[iouae]

By your questions you prove that you have no concept of what hierarchy and authority even mean, especially in the Church.

So you just cannot answer, or do not wish to address my question?
Here it was again...

When the disciples were arguing about who was the greatest, Christ washed their feet to show that in Christianity, to be a servant is to be the greatest.

Does a servant rule over the person who's feet he washes?

 

[HisServant]

I'm not Catholic. Once again your ignorance is harming your argument.

Hey, Catholics even have trouble with known pedophile priests being defrocked. Some believe that once you are a priest, it is forever, no matter what you do.

Then look at some of your sadistic Popes that have occurred in history.... your church has been incapable of expelling bad hierarchy members, and like the mafia, they cover for one another.

 

[Cruciform]

Hey, Catholics even have trouble with known pedophile priests being defrocked. Some believe that once you are a priest, it is forever, no matter what you do. Then look at some of your sadistic Popes that have occurred in history...your church has been incapable of expelling bad hierarchy members, and like the mafia, they cover for one another.

Your vast ignorance of all things Catholic is noted. (Again.) :yawn:

 

[brewmama]

Hey, Catholics even have trouble with known pedophile priests being defrocked. Some believe that once you are a priest, it is forever, no matter what you do.

Then look at some of your sadistic Popes that have occurred in history.... your church has been incapable of expelling bad hierarchy members, and like the mafia, they cover for one another.

Can you not read?

 

[brewmama]

So you just cannot answer, or do not wish to address my question?
Here it was again...

When the disciples were arguing about who was the greatest, Christ washed their feet to show that in Christianity, to be a servant is to be the greatest.

Does a servant rule over the person who's feet he washes?

As I have already said, your ignorance continues to be the main basis of your argument. Bishops are indeed servants and not rulers. You have no idea what church hierarchy is, but you continue to use it as...some sort of nonpoint. I have answered you many times, yet you ignore what I say.

 

[iouae]

As I have already said, your ignorance continues to be the main basis of your argument. Bishops are indeed servants and not rulers. You have no idea what church hierarchy is, but you continue to use it as...some sort of nonpoint. I have answered you many times, yet you ignore what I say.

Well there we go. "Bishops are indeed servants and not rulers". Now you are agreeing with me that there is no hierarchy in the church, because in a hierarchy, bishops are rulers.

Maybe in the Orthodox Church Bishops are servants and not rulers.
Then why are you not on my side that church government is non-hierarchical?

 

[brewmama]

Well there we go. "Bishops are indeed servants and not rulers". Now you are agreeing with me that there is no hierarchy in the church, because in a hierarchy, bishops are rulers.

Maybe in the Orthodox Church Bishops are servants and not rulers.
Then why are you not on my side that church government is non-hierarchical?

What I am saying is that you don't understand hierarchy

 

[brewmama]

"The Church of Christ is hierarchical, and this hierarchy "corresponds to an imitation of God," reflecting the order of life "even among the celestial beings."[10] Yet the Church is not solely hierarchical in its ministry and service: the Holy Spirit is poured out on all the people of God. Each faithful is considered king, priest, and prophet, while the gifts of the Spirit are many and varied (1 Cor. 12:28-30), understood as being neither restricted to the ordained ministry nor reduced to the level of obedience alone (cf. 1 Thess. 5:19-20). One recalls the influence in the Christian East of unordained, "lay" or monastic elders, which has often proved far greater than that of any hierarch. The sacramental authority of the hierarchy always exists alongside the spiritual authority of the saints. Both are required and presuppose each other. Ideally, the two work together, like two wings of a bird. They counterbalance and complement one another when needed. The hierarchical order and dimension of the Church cannot be correctly interpreted except in relation to the priestly and prophetic ministry entrusted to the entire people of God (1 Pet 2:9), clergy and laity.[11]...
Orthodox faithful, then, should not seek "refuge" in the simplistic belief that supreme authority lies in the hands of a patriarch, or in ecumenical councils, or in certain local synods, or perhaps in the local bishop. Such notions are not entirely erroneous, but they are surely limited, threatening to objectify and institutionalize the Church. Synods and Bishops are sources of authority which operate primarily in cases of conflict and necessity, that is in abnormal situations such as the condemnation of heresy or the establishment of disciplinary order and pastoral care. Authority in the Church is in the final analysis undefinable, never limited to an order or council or to any one individual or group of individuals. Ecclesial authority is the experience of the mystery of God in Christ through the Spirit who guides the Church.

This reality is incarnate and exercised as a mutual subordination of love deriving from the sharing in common of the saving mysterious life of the Church. This is the all-transcending and binding authority, the dimension of the Church beyond any kind of structure and institution and organization."

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8172

 

[iouae]

"The Church of Christ is hierarchical, and this hierarchy "corresponds to an imitation of God," reflecting the order of life "even among the celestial beings."[10] Yet the Church is not solely hierarchical in its ministry and service: the Holy Spirit is poured out on all the people of God. Each faithful is considered king, priest, and prophet, while the gifts of the Spirit are many and varied (1 Cor. 12:28-30), understood as being neither restricted to the ordained ministry nor reduced to the level of obedience alone (cf. 1 Thess. 5:19-20). One recalls the influence in the Christian East of unordained, "lay" or monastic elders, which has often proved far greater than that of any hierarch. The sacramental authority of the hierarchy always exists alongside the spiritual authority of the saints. Both are required and presuppose each other. Ideally, the two work together, like two wings of a bird. They counterbalance and complement one another when needed. The hierarchical order and dimension of the Church cannot be correctly interpreted except in relation to the priestly and prophetic ministry entrusted to the entire people of God (1 Pet 2:9), clergy and laity.[11]...
Orthodox faithful, then, should not seek "refuge" in the simplistic belief that supreme authority lies in the hands of a patriarch, or in ecumenical councils, or in certain local synods, or perhaps in the local bishop. Such notions are not entirely erroneous, but they are surely limited, threatening to objectify and institutionalize the Church. Synods and Bishops are sources of authority which operate primarily in cases of conflict and necessity, that is in abnormal situations such as the condemnation of heresy or the establishment of disciplinary order and pastoral care. Authority in the Church is in the final analysis undefinable, never limited to an order or council or to any one individual or group of individuals. Ecclesial authority is the experience of the mystery of God in Christ through the Spirit who guides the Church.

This reality is incarnate and exercised as a mutual subordination of love deriving from the sharing in common of the saving mysterious life of the Church. This is the all-transcending and binding authority, the dimension of the Church beyond any kind of structure and institution and organization."

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8172

I have no idea what the above is saying.

My feeling is that the author just tried to "mystify" authority making it difficult to pin them down to a definite answer.

Suppose you asked your husband a simple question like "Do you love me?" and he gave you an abstract dissertation on love. Would you be satisfied?

 

[brewmama]

I have no idea what the above is saying.

My feeling is that the author just tried to "mystify" authority making it difficult to pin them down to a definite answer.

That's your impression. Mine is that I am used to being given meat and here there is very little other than thin whey.

 

[iouae]

That's your impression. Mine is that I am used to being given meat and here there is very little other than thin whey.

The Orthodox Church involves itself in every aspect of your life from birth to death, from sunrise to sunset. It tells you when to fast etc.

Let us take a practical example since you brought up meat and "thin whey".

If the church tells you that Wednesday is a fast, in commemoration of Judas Iscariot. Do you feel obliged to fast every Wednesday?

 

[HisServant]

Can you not read?

Do you not understand English?

Sacraments = pagan...... do your research. Neither Jesus nor the Apostles advocated sacramentalism in any way shape or form.

Sacramentalism came from mithraism.

 

[iouae]

Do you not understand English?

Sacraments = pagan...... do your research. Neither Jesus nor the Apostles advocated sacramentalism in any way shape or form.

Sacramentalism came from mithraism.

HisServant is correct.

I know sacraments are unBiblical from reading the Bible.
I did not know they come from Mithraism.

All religions have rites and rituals which keep you attached to that religion. It is worth examining all one's rites and rituals to ask oneself, "Why do I do this?". For instance when I see a ladder, I deliberately walk under it to show I have no superstitious fear. And I do own a black cat.