brewmama
New member
When they are laying on of hands, they say they are laying on of hands. It's different. The Orthodox Church does that too.
Again, where's the proof of your conjecture?
Church government is not hierarchical
- Thread starter iouae
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When they are laying on of hands, they say they are laying on of hands. It's different. The Orthodox Church does that too.
Again, where's the proof of your conjecture?
brewmama
New member
Obey Paul? Except when he says this I guess,
1 Corinthians 7:5 (NKJV)
5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
You are cherry picking to suit your own desires again!
iouae
Well-known member
I wish you could learn to enjoy your Christianity as much as I enjoy mine, not feeling a need to fast more than very occasionally.
brewmama
New member
You are very much mistaken if you think I do not "enjoy" my Christianity. That's quite a laugh! But at least you now admit there is a need to fast occasionally. By the way, there are different levels of fasting. There is a decrease in quality, which is what the Wed and Fri fasts are, we just don't eat meat. An all day strict fast only occurs (for us, because I'm Western Rite Orthodox) on Ash Wed and Good Friday. Lent in the Eastern Rite involves decrease in quality, while in the Western Rite it's more a decrease in quantity. I can assure you we aren't starving! And many people, such as vegetarians, would not see the big deal at all.
Arsenios
Well-known member
2000 years of Christian history throughout the whole world.
beginning with Christ Himself being baptized,
And continuing with His Apostles,
From the very beginning of Christianity,
bear witness against you...
It signifies total immersion...
Being bothered is so.... Banal...
That was not the Baptism, but the partaking of the Cup, and Scripture attests to the fact that we are baptized into His Death, in order that we should receive His Life...
When Christ came out of the other side of his crucifixion, burial, and resurrection, it is not He who was changed, but human nature IN Him, which is why we need to be baptized INTO Christ, for as Scripture tells us, "Whoever has been baptized into Christ has put on Christ..."
Arsenios
iouae
Well-known member
The word "tithe" is used 7 times in the NT.
In every instance the context is in connection with the OT temple service, or is spoken to the Pharisees who were not under the new covenant.
Yet there is no OT doctrine which every church embraces more emphatically than tithing.
Contrast this with the word "sabbath" which is mentioned 55 times in the NT.
Why would the church reject the sabbath as being OT and legalistic, while insisting that tithing is not?
Because money is power.
In every instance the context is in connection with the OT temple service, or is spoken to the Pharisees who were not under the new covenant.
Yet there is no OT doctrine which every church embraces more emphatically than tithing.
Contrast this with the word "sabbath" which is mentioned 55 times in the NT.
Why would the church reject the sabbath as being OT and legalistic, while insisting that tithing is not?
Because money is power.
Arsenios
Well-known member
Was Christ crucified?
Do you follow Him?
Did Christ command you to take up your own cross?
Do you know that a cross is an instrument of torture unto death?
Do you really think that the Faith of Christ is about you "feeling your very own needs"... So you can enjoy yourself more???
I mean, that just sounds self-centered and shallow, and I do not think you are so...
Arsenios
Arsenios
Well-known member
Christ sent His Apostles into the world telling them to disciple all the nations [ethnics], teaching them to be meticulously observing ALL that He had commanded them, and baptizing them...
Do you think He meant your list of 1050??
Have you even looked at the discipling that the apostolic Churches DO to this very day? Throughout the world? And their services? And how congruent they all are? Even the Ethiopian Church, which was insularized apart from all of us for a thousand years, and is still as we all are?
What do you think Christ meant when He said "ALL" in that Great Commission for the world to His Apostles?
Arsenios
Arsenios
Well-known member
What a wretched and cynical understanding of the Christian Holy Spirit of Giving! Lord have Mercy!
Tithing is a down payment on what is owed...
To Christ we owe our very lives...
Likewise, the prescribed fasts are but minimums - Many fast much more than these...
Likewise our rule of prayers... A minimum to keep, more advised...
Arsenios
Arsenios
Well-known member
The NT teaching of Christ is to not be Pharasitical about it...
The early Church, the Ancient Faith, NEVER said "Forget the Sabbath."
But Christ arose on the Eighth Day, the New Day, a New and Holy Day, the First Day... And it is this day that we keep, for if Christ is not Risen, Christ's Faith for us is but dust and ashes...
This is so wretched and cynical... I have seen the Latin Church hound its faithful for money, money and more money... And just as Christ did not sway the evil-doers with his "Hypocrites!" rebuke, neither will your invocation of it here help anything except your cynicism and prideful self-justification in your supposed moral superiority...
Set these aside, my Brother...
The Christ loved the Widow's mites, for the Gift is in the giving, and not in what is done by those now having possessions with the gift they possess... The fact that the Latin Church has become rich and in many ways immoral does not free anyone of their own sins... You will not find union with Christ in your judgmentalism of their sins, nor release from your own...
We have a story from the desert, where a hermit decided to leave his cell and visit other monks living around him to see how everyone was doing... And he came upon two monks sinning together, and he rebuked them and castigated them and judged them without mercy, and he strode away from them putting his back toward them, and returned to his cell, thankful just to be able to re-enter into his life of solitude and prayer... And as he stepped into the door of his cell, he was unable to enter it, and he beheld an Angel of the Lord blocking his return, and he asked the Angel why he was blocking the door.
The Angel replied: "God sent me to ask YOU what YOU want HIM to DO with the two men you have condemned." And the monk fell at the Angel's feet and begged forgiveness, and prayed for the two monks he had judged so badly...
Arsenios
brewmama
New member
It's becoming clear that you just want to argue, (ie, troll) as you bring up more and more tirades as previous ones are explained. Have a nice life.
iouae
Well-known member
There we go.
The Apostolic, original church kept the Sabbath on Saturday.
Then the church came along and said, we want it on the popular pagan day of the sun or "Sunday" and then to justify this, added "because Christ was raised on Sunday" - which He was not.
Why not choose the day He was crucified, or any other random day on which He performed some event? God NEVER gave the church authority to change a day HE MADE HOLY from creation, by resting on it.
Thus the early apostate church started doing things which IT defined as HOLY, ignoring the things God defined as holy.
Arsenios
Well-known member
Well, let's see - There was the Baptism of Christ in the Jordan, where the Holy Spirit descended and abided on Him...
So that Baptism was in water, yes?
And it was NOT unto repentance, was it?
But that ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS should be fulfilled, yes?
So the Baptism of Christ: IF we are baptized in THAT Baptism, we can expect the fulfillment of righteousness and the descent and abidance in us of the Holy Spirit...
But you want some OTHER baptism that does not give you the Holy Spirit and fulfill righteousness?
So who, exactly, do you think it was that Baptized the Gentiles with Peter after the Holy Spirit descended upon them, and WHY would the descent of the Holy Spirit NOT be sufficient for them??
Arsenios
Arsenios
Well-known member
He died on the eve of the Sabbath, which was a High Day that year, and was buried that Friday prior to sunset, and was in the grave all that day of the Sabbath, and arose from the dead very early in the morning on the third day, which is the day after the Sabbath... Which is the first day of the week, which is Sunday, the Eighth Day...
Do you even believe he was in the tomb prior to and after the Sabbath?
The Church prescribes spending Saturday in preparation for Sunday in prayer and services and labors for the Church...
Sunday is the Day of Resurrection!
Arsenios
iouae
Well-known member
Christ was crucified on a Wed, the day before the Passover annual Sabbath. He was placed in the tomb at sunset. He remained there for EXACTLY 3 days and 3 nights to rise Sat. sunset.
I do not wish to address this further since the day Christ was raised on IS IRRELEVANT. Man decided to turn God's holy day to the pagan sun-day and used the day he was supposedly raised on as an EXCUSE to justify this. And its a very weak and pathetic excuse too. Like I said, why not chose the day He was crucified on as the Sabbath? This would be equally wrong.
God did not give the church leave to play fast and loose with what He calls holy.
iouae
Well-known member
Podium time is power.
Most churches exercise their authority by only granting their leading lights access to preaching time. Closer my podium to thee.
But look at the democratic way which the original church allocated speaking opportunities. All could speak, the only limitation being that it had to be one at a time, each waiting for the other to finish.
Look at 1 Cor 14 and see how far away from this democratic, bottom-up form of preaching we have come.
1 Cor 14 (NIV)
26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.
29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.
Most churches exercise their authority by only granting their leading lights access to preaching time. Closer my podium to thee.
But look at the democratic way which the original church allocated speaking opportunities. All could speak, the only limitation being that it had to be one at a time, each waiting for the other to finish.
Look at 1 Cor 14 and see how far away from this democratic, bottom-up form of preaching we have come.
1 Cor 14 (NIV)
26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.
29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.
Arsenios
Well-known member
We then simply disagree...
The Church has understood it the way I have said it here for 2000 years now... Your understanding is probably from Christ saying three days and three nights of Jonah in the whale?
Arsenios