To chrys it might. I hear he likes to lay flowers on the grave-sites of saints.
Church government is not hierarchical
- Thread starter iouae
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To chrys it might. I hear he likes to lay flowers on the grave-sites of saints.
brewmama
New member
I understand what it says. Whether you do is the issue.
brewmama
New member
It's already present, in the Orthodox Church.
Exactly. As a hierarchy. Which continues.
Not sure what you mean by "no newbie is subject to any apostle except voluntarily..."
If he joins the church he IS subject to the apostle (or bishop)
Otherwise, you seem to be agreeing about hierarchy, so no argument.
Well, each church is under a Patriarch, with a more local Metropolitan and bishop under him. And the Roman Church is under the Bishop of Rome. We are not in communion with them however. At this point.
Actually I am, it was the post I was answering that used it incorrectly.
John 19:26–27: Woman, behold your son. Son Behold your mother. He wouldn't have done that if Mary had other sons.
brewmama
New member
So, basically, you just reject any proof, don't even read it, just continue with your manmade beliefs. And that Timothy quote has no bearing on the subject at all. Puzzling.
iouae
Well-known member
Christianity is spread by "Each one Teach one".
Someone older in the faith brings someone not in the faith, into the faith. Thus, the newbie is taught by the elder.
Because Christianity is not rocket science, this takes a short while.
That person is then qualified as an "elder" in the faith to teach the next newbie.
There is no hierarchy here except briefly and temporarily.
The older in the faith has no power to order the newbie to do anything.
It is totally voluntary on both parts, if the older wishes to teach, and if the younger wishes to learn.
It is how humans have passed on knowledge and customs through the ages.
Where Church Hierarchy goes seriously wrong is to ...
1) formalise the relationship making one person the Bishop of another
2) make the teacher-student relationship permanent
3) think that the first one in the faith from then on forever controls those later in the faith.
4) institute sacraments which the first-in-the-faith alone and forever can administer to the later-in-the-faith so making that a formal, permanent relationship.
5) building cathedrals where some control access to worship.
6) using relics and icons which those in control of the building use to attract and control newbies.
7) instituting services and practices and confessions, and confirmations, and a whole lot of rituals which the first-in-the-faith use to control those later-in-the-faith.
I could go on. One has turned a simple and innocent instruction of "go ye therefore into all the world and make disciples" into a whole oppressive, all controlling institution, dominated by a hierarchy which orders your life from accepting Christ to death.
Essentially one is dangling salvation in front of someone and using that carrot to manipulate and control them forever, as if you control access to salvation.
Some folks may like that setup.
I was in that setup.
I thank God for delivering me from that setup to a point where I now work out MY OWN salvation with fear and trembling.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Matthew 10:23 (KJV)
I do understand it. You do too.
It is sixth grade English.
Do you believe it?
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
If your "proof" contradicts scripture, we will have to reject your "proof".
Shall I believe God or your church fathers? (Speaking of manmade beliefs?)
Elohim hates religion...I don't vouch for this guy or any other statements he might have made, but this particular essay is truth and amen.
''Religion is often characterized by absolutism, authoritarianism and activism
which do not derive from God Himself''.
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/godhatesrel.html
''Religion is often characterized by absolutism, authoritarianism and activism
which do not derive from God Himself''.
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/godhatesrel.html
so why did Jesus build His church on a rock?
The term used was not ''church'' church represents religion, because it was devised by religion, for religious purposes.
Messiah said, ''upon this rock I will build my ecclesia'' and the word ecclesia is not represented in any other language by any other word.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
so we can't trust the words in the bible?
We can't trust translations and we can't trust men who haven't taken the time to discover what the original hearers understood by what they heard. In your case the proverbial cap fits.
what translation do you use?
What if the wife wants equal authority in the household?
What is the difference between receiving authority from a denomination and RCC. If one doesn't agree with the answers from an authority, is he allowed to jump to another denomination? Where does one settle and obey anyway?
good questions
since he does not recognize the authority of rome
is he not making himself the authority?
PCA has the same sort of government as most traditional churches have. Even though Calvin and Luther made others understand the bible lightyears, packed with wise wisdom, better doesn't mean they chunk everything the Catholics do cause its still in the bible how Christians govern themselves. But America is returning back to wild wild west, everyone care for themselves. Not a bad idea for everyone to carry guns.
Are you in a wild wild denomination where everyone has their own opinions?
What makes the Catholics think Protestants are not sheep?