Christianity vs karma

[James Dalton]

not assuming , you are relying on your good karma to save you.


karma is a path that leads to destruction

Mat 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

I personally believe in salvation by faith in the lamb of God, alone. I also understand karma. To pretend the devil is under every rock makes an Omnipresent devil. I would say this glorifies wickedness, instead of defeats it. I collect every tid bit of information I can to help me Witness about Jesus as effectively as possible.

I find that people that are legalistic or narrow minded have ruined crops. I grasp any understanding I can to assist in conveying the gospel.

The Gospel?

There's a God. He Died in our place so He can Live in us and save us. I'm not God and Salvation is all from Him. My contribution was giving up my fight and trusting Jesus. I'll get a spiffy new body one day and no longer live in my current, dirty duds.

Karma? I still understand it and can utilize its concept in a positive way. David said that no matter where he was he was consumed by God. I gain from everything, because God is the inner explaintion for all that I see, hear and learn. God is so loud in my heart that a 15 minute episode of the three stooges could become a 2 hour sermon that rattles of my tongue.

But, that's just me and my best FRIEND.

 

[freelight]

Important points......

Important points......

karma says be good you can save yourself



no mistake

I corrected you earlier on that assumption, and readers can read from the beginning here to see how the debate is going,... who has brought better more informed logical contributions and a more broad all-inclusive understanding of what 'karma' is, in its proper relational context.

Some may not see the forest for the trees

Whatsoever a man sows, that also he will reap is not happening
in this life which is why karma invented reincarnation .

We do recognize the time factor in all karmic transactions, some seeds may sprout earlier than others, some causal actions have sooner or later effects,...this is logical, but this in no wise discounts or disproves in the reality of karma (actions and their consequences continue to inter-relate, unfold and effect other movements in the stream of creation). Karma does not 'invent' reincarnation although 'karma' and 'rebirth' is closely associated, since if rebirth of souls does occur, the karmic effects and soul's experience, past history will continue on to be resolved or worked out in a future time, in what ever body the soul has adopted. We would also note though, even without a theory of reincarnation as traditionally assumed (there are different kinds of reincarnation theories)....karma would STILL CONTINUE for all souls as they progress into the spirit-worlds or if they are resurrected to live on the 'new earth' - See: The Law of Compensation.

* Karma would be modified or attenuated within a world or among a community of souls that is purified, perfected or immortalized, since their actions would be inspired or limited to their psychic state or spiritual constitution. So, a purified/perfected being,...could only do what it has the potential or possibility of doing. 'karma' then would be different according to the condition of the soul and its potential, within any given conditional or situational-context,...just an extra thing to consider.

reincarnation is a really big lie telling people that they have
more chances to be good enough to save them selves .

I approach Reincarnation more philosophically,....the soul is always trans-forming, no matter if you believe in a concept of physical reincarnation or not - the fact is...karma continues, ...remember,...'karma' means action/movement....and what movements previous actions precipitate. I've provided much to help facilitate what karma is, and how one can comprehend and contextualize it within their own theology, because no matter what you believe....'karma' is still factoring into the over-all equation of things.

ALSO,....Is not God's love long suffering, everlasting? - Does not his grace/mercy extend to man sufficient and ample amount of TIME for man to fulfill his purpose of being, to perfect himself, to be 'saved', 'restored', 'enlightened',....unfold his divine and human potential ? Of course,...even if there is a certain time-window of opportunity (a cutting off point existing), and life or death is finalized as an ultimate condition (some souls choosing life, others choosing eternal death)....LOVE ever affords all the space and time that is needed to give a soul its final choice.

In this long suffering period of divine love extended to souls,....LOVE would certainly provide space and time for souls to return to 'God'....and this COULD include providing whatever BODIES or life-experiences (lifetimes) a soul would NEED in order for it to gain experience, wisdom, learning, knowledge....to fulfill its purpose, learn its lessons and return Home to God, never to be return to a material existence again, the soul have EARNED its place in a higher purified world kin to God's kingdom,...closer to his celestial World, in the higher heavens.

No matter if you hold to physical re-embodiments, or souls going on to progress in the spirit-worlds after death, or a more traditional concept of 'resurrection'...'karma' still pertains and will be modified by certain factors both within the soul (its disposition/constitution) and its environment (factors that may influence without). Remember what we noted before.

Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment

DO NOTE, this verse does NOT necessarily discount reincarnation, it is not an absolute statement, but is relative to the point of the writer saying Jesus death was 'once' for all time, just as for any 'given lifetime'(incarnation) there is one physical-death event. See it in context. See here :thumb:

 

[freelight]

I didn't realize posts were dated and this was an old discussion.

I'm continuing to respond here, and have provided sufficiently already for those wanting to expand or research upon the topic of karma. I find it better sometimes to just add onto a former thread on a subject, instead of creating a new one. Efficiency has its perks. This keeps all within a given thread, saving some forum space as well. - its karma-wise :crackup:

 

[God's Truth]

I personally believe in salvation by faith in the lamb of God, alone. I also understand karma. To pretend the devil is under every rock makes an Omnipresent devil. I would say this glorifies wickedness, instead of defeats it. I collect every tid bit of information I can to help me Witness about Jesus as effectively as possible.

I find that people that are legalistic or narrow minded have ruined crops. I grasp any understanding I can to assist in conveying the gospel.

The Gospel?

There's a God. He Died in our place so He can Live in us and save us. I'm not God and Salvation is all from Him. My contribution was giving up my fight and trusting Jesus. I'll get a spiffy new body one day and no longer live in my current, dirty duds.

Karma? I still understand it and can utilize its concept in a positive way. David said that no matter where he was he was consumed by God. I gain from everything, because God is the inner explaintion for all that I see, hear and learn. God is so loud in my heart that a 15 minute episode of the three stooges could become a 2 hour sermon that rattles of my tongue.

But, that's just me and my best FRIEND.

There is no bad scripture.

Scripture says other gods are demons, and there are doctrines of demons.

 

[freelight]

Choice, movement, activity, results.......................

Choice, movement, activity, results.......................

not assuming , you are relying on your good karma to save you.

Could you prove your charge? Or just admit its an 'assumption'. I'm expounding on the concept of karma, and how it may relate to one's theology, soteriology, eschatology, etc. Its a wonderful subject. I'm not writing any creeds or dogma.

karma is a path that leads to destruction

Not at all. Its a fact of conditional existence - as long as there is thought, intention and activity,...there is 'karma'. This is what 'karma' is. Your projecting your presuppositions and preconceptions.

Mat 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

And do note, your very verse above is conditional upon one's choice, is it not? Whether you experience blessing or cursing, as God gives all the opportunity for life or death,...is based upon your choice. - what you choose, is part of your 'karma', and if you choose life, good, truth, wisdom, beauty, immortality, God's will....you reap the benefits - a choice for one's own good, a decision or movement towards 'God' is good karma and you reap or earn the REWARD.

 

[God's Truth]

Could you prove your charge? Or just admit its an 'assumption'. I'm expounding on the concept of karma, and how it may relate to one's theology, soteriology, eschatology, etc. Its a wonderful subject. I'm not writing any creeds or dogma.



Not at all. Its a fact of conditional existence - as long as there is thought, intention and activity,...there is 'karma'. This is what 'karma' is. Your projecting your presuppositions and preconceptions.



And do note, your very verse above is conditional upon one's choice, is it not? Whether you experience blessing or cursing, as God gives all the opportunity for life or death,...is based upon your choice. - what you choose, is part of your 'karma', and if you choose life, good, truth, wisdom, beauty, immortality, God's will....you reap the benefits - a choice for one's own good, a decision or movement towards 'God' is good karma and you reap or earn the REWARD.

What don't you get that we do not go by doctrine of demons, no matter how close you think they sound to God's Truth?

 

[Nihilo]

I would guess 'God' would prefer you to enjoy the new wine of His Spirit more

"be not drunk with wine as in excess, but be ye filled with the Spirit".......

OK, but just so you know, me and [MENTION=15579]1Mind1Spirit[/MENTION] will be drinking liquor too.

 

[freelight]

OK, but just so you know, me and [MENTION=15579]1Mind1Spirit[/MENTION] will be drinking liquor too.

No problem with it, in moderation and within reason and wisdom. Too many lives have been destroyed by alcoholism. Being mindful of this is rather prudent, don't you think?

 

[freelight]

What don't you get that we do not go by doctrine of demons, no matter how close you think they sound to God's Truth?

YOU are the only one bringing 'demons' into the discussion which have no place in such a discussion. Its ridiculous. My former commentary on the subject stands awaiting further consideration, debate or elaboration. The very fact that souls are 'judged according to their works', is proof of karmic law, since all actions have consequenes. This isn't rocket science,...although within karmic inter-actions, some things might appear mysterious, or 'random' in the flow of things, but most everything has karmic markers and indications, since whatever seed is planted, determines the form and quality of the harvest produced. As I noted earlier,...'karma' will be modified or attenuated based on the condition and potentials of a soul based on its disposition/constitution (mortals will be more prone to carnal temptation, whereas an immortal soul being of the divine nature, will have more pure desires and abilities to do only good), etc.

There is much about karma on many levels that has pertinence and significance, no matter what kind of theology one subscribes to. I'm using this 'call out thread' (it is of a sort) as an opportunity to expound upon it further, making good use of the space and time here, since that is what Life gives us. Life and all karma is what we do with the space and time given to us,...how we use the potentials and possibilities in our power to effect anything.

'Karma-yoga' (a school within Vedic religious practice) by definition is a form of 'practice' that focuses on the doing of good works, for its own sake, which naturally as a by-product produces good results

 

[God's Truth]

YOU are the only one bringing 'demons' into the discussion which have no place in such a discussion. Its ridiculous. My former commentary on the subject stands awaiting further consideration, debate or elaboration. The very fact that souls are 'judged according to their works', is proof of karmic law, since all actions have consequenes. This isn't rocket science,...although within karmic inter-actions, some things might appear mysterious, or 'random' in the flow of things, but most everything has karmic markers and indications, since whatever seed is planted, determines the form and quality of the harvest produced. As I noted earlier,...'karma' will be modified or attenuated based on the condition and potentials of a soul based on its disposition/constitution (mortals will be more prone to carnal temptation, whereas an immortal soul being of the divine nature, will have more pure desires and abilities to do only good), etc.

There is much about karma on many levels that has pertinence and significance, no matter what kind of theology one subscribes to. I'm using this 'call out thread' (it is of a sort) as an opportunity to expound upon it further, making good use of the space and time here, since that is what Life gives us. Life and all karma is what we do with the space and time given to us,...how we use the potentials and possibilities in our power to effect anything.

'Karma-yoga' (a school within Vedic religious practice) by definition is a form of 'practice' that focuses on the doing of good works, for its own sake, which naturally as a by-product produces good results

The Bible says it is a doctrine of demons.

 

[way 2 go]

Could you prove your charge? Or just admit its an 'assumption'..

are you denying that you are relying on your good karma to save you ?

 

[freelight]

The Bible says it is a doctrine of demons.

This claim is mistaken, by your misunderstanding of karma

 

[freelight]

are you denying that you are relying on your good karma to save you ?

I'm not claiming any 'salvation' one way or another. I'm expounding on the subject, and from there exploring what can be assumed or understood within any given theology. From exploring that, we'd have to further exposit various scenarios where karma factors into anyting.

 

[God's Truth]

This claim is mistaken, by your misunderstanding of karma

You are mistaken. I do not misunderstand karma.

 

[csuguy]

Here is an interesting, and important, point about Karma vs Christianity: Karma is used as a means of explaining why bad things happen to people, even seemingly very good people. It's because they did bad deeds and are getting their just deserts - even if it took a few dozen lifetimes to catch up to them. Similarly, people who are horrible to others, yet are blessed by wealth, good looks, extraordinary talent, etc. are so blessed because this is their reward for the good they've done.

Now if you carry this out to its logical conclusion - this means that those who are suffering in society (the poor, sick, injured, etc.) are suffering because they deserve it. Likewise, those who are living a blissful life have earned it. What has been established here is class warfare: criminalizing the least of these because they suffer. On the flip side: idolizing the well-off as an example for how to live.

This is all completely contradictory to Christianity.

 

[God's Truth]

Here is an interesting, and important, point about Karma vs Christianity: Karma is used as a means of explaining why bad things happen to people, even seemingly very good people. It's because they did bad deeds and are getting their just deserts - even if it took a few dozen lifetimes to catch up to them. Similarly, people who are horrible to others, yet are blessed by wealth, good looks, extraordinary talent, etc. are so blessed because this is their reward for the good they've done.

Now if you carry this out to its logical conclusion - this means that those who are suffering in society (the poor, sick, injured, etc.) are suffering because they deserve it. Likewise, those who are living a blissful life have earned it. What has been established here is class warfare: criminalizing the least of these because they suffer. On the flip side: idolizing the well-off as an example for how to live.

This is all completely contradictory to Christianity.

Exactly.

Karma is not from God.

We Christians though, will reap what we sow in this life for the next life.

If we live in sin and disobedience in this life, we will not have eternal life with Christ.

 

[freelight]

More is going on behind appearances.......

More is going on behind appearances.......

Here is an interesting, and important, point about Karma vs Christianity: Karma is used as a means of explaining why bad things happen to people, even seemingly very good people. It's because they did bad deeds and are getting their just deserts - even if it took a few dozen lifetimes to catch up to them. Similarly, people who are horrible to others, yet are blessed by wealth, good looks, extraordinary talent, etc. are so blessed because this is their reward for the good they've done.

Now if you carry this out to its logical conclusion - this means that those who are suffering in society (the poor, sick, injured, etc.) are suffering because they deserve it. Likewise, those who are living a blissful life have earned it. What has been established here is class warfare: criminalizing the least of these because they suffer. On the flip side: idolizing the well-off as an example for how to live.

This is all completely contradictory to Christianity.

Hi csuguy,

It still holds that whatsoever a man sows, that also he reaps, the law of action and consequence, cause/effect, successive relations, inter-active affections, corresponding sequences....still continues. Its a universal law that sin produces its own effects, and love as well,....each tree producing its own fruit,....every seed produces after its kind. My former commentary here holds, while readers can research where they feel karma pertains, in the realm of conditional existence, for it remains apparent and logical that all that is subject to 'conditioning' by thought, intention, words, actions...is governed by the law of balance and compensation (karma). 'God' (law) is not mocked,....since you cannot overturn or abrogate karma. You might be able to relax, absolve or reverse karma by various ways of repentance, atonement, making good karma...but as long as you can be conditioned by any 'action',...there is karma.

It also remains that goodness is its own virtue, evil its own punishment, so we are to do good while we can, or repent while we are able....since our own words and works judge us, the law of karma is measure for measure, even if we don't see the effects of our actions until some near or far future time,...all thoughts, intentions, words, actions have their effects. That's what we're considering/exploring here, for those interested to read the whole thread. There's always more to learn.

If you deny karma entirely, you deny natural and spiritual law, scriptural teaching and common sense logic, even though some things within the continuum of life appear random or accidental, or caused by 'sin' (in conventional Christian theology),...you still have a 'cause' behind effects. Even with 'sin', you still have to make atonement for sin,....and this 'atonement' includes in totality to be complete, a genuine repentance, transformation of heart & soul, a changed life, a return to RIGHT DOING. So,...either way you look at it,..the universal bar of God's judgment carries out its justice and mercy,....by lawful measure, and grace at last absolves all sin, providing salvation for man, no matter what your theory or system of 'salvation' claims, its terms, etc. "and they were judged according to their 'karma'"...the scripture says. Karma = action/doing/works. Thoughts, intentions, words, actions still carry out their causal impressions and effects. This is either a fact, an observational truth, 'science' or everything is just haphazard, accidental, random. That would be foolish to assume, although in the flux of movements some actions appear to be 'random' or 'accidental',...but this is a matter of deeper study into 'karma'. We've barely scraped the surface, as eastern schools go pretty deep into this. We'll continue do go deeper

 

[freelight]

Exactly.

Karma is not from God.

The principle or concept of 'karma' is scientific and philosophic,....if its how nature works, then it is certainly something originating by the Creator (and/or inherent within Creation itself), as a governing principle within the very soul and structure of existence.

We Christians though, will reap what we sow in this life for the next life.

Your acknowledgment of karma is noted - but you would appear to limit its operation

If we live in sin and disobedience in this life, we will not have eternal life with Christ.

I think grace extends much further then we finite souls assume, that love extends way beyond the grave into eternity. That souls may have a limited time to respond to His love may be so,...but whats given in infinity must be way beyond our mortal grasp to assume.

 

[waskosky]

Here is an interesting, and important, point about Karma vs Christianity: Karma is used as a means of explaining why bad things happen to people, even seemingly very good people. It's because they did bad deeds and are getting their just deserts - even if it took a few dozen lifetimes to catch up to them. Similarly, people who are horrible to others, yet are blessed by wealth, good looks, extraordinary talent, etc. are so blessed because this is their reward for the good they've done.

Now if you carry this out to its logical conclusion - this means that those who are suffering in society (the poor, sick, injured, etc.) are suffering because they deserve it. Likewise, those who are living a blissful life have earned it. What has been established here is class warfare: criminalizing the least of these because they suffer. On the flip side: idolizing the well-off as an example for how to live.

This is all completely contradictory to Christianity.

It seems very possible that this "logical conclusion" is still not the conclusion being reached by many inclined to think in terms of karma. Karma has also been used as a way of explaining why forgiving others for their past actions, rather than judging them for their current experiences, is the safer path to take. There would seem to be a significant element of contradiction in the belief systems of one who says "yes, I say they are at fault for their experience therefore I will not help them" and one who says "yes, I see they are hurting and therefore I am now at risk for not helping them." Both loving and unloving paths appear possible regardless of whether or not the higher principle invoked is labeled as karmic law or not.

"Idolizing" (or something less than idolizing) others well off could also be done through an effort to look for the virtues in their actions, and find greater opportunities for equivalent virtue in your efforts, or conversely as a way to look for the shortcuts to success by falling prey to greed in your thinking of how to reach the same success.

It does not seem inherently un-christian to value excellence:
"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." (Philippians 4:8 ESV)

Perceptions of the nature of "reward" seem to be a greatly variable factor in the relative value of metaphysical considerations from person to person.

 

[God's Truth]

The principle or concept of 'karma' is scientific and philosophic,....if its how nature works, then it is certainly something originating by the Creator (and/or inherent within Creation itself), as a governing principle within the very soul and structure of existence.



Your acknowledgment of karma is noted - but you would appear to limit its operation



I think grace extends much further then we finite souls assume, that love extends way beyond the grave into eternity. That souls may have a limited time to respond to His love may be so,...but whats given in infinity must be way beyond our mortal grasp to assume.

What don't you get that karma is evil and the doctrine of demons.

Why would you lie and say I acknowledge karma from the Bible when I have explained to you many times it is not in the Bible and it is of demons?