Can a Christian lose their salvation

[Idolater]

"Sneer quotes" is a good term.

 

[7djengo7]

"Sneer quotes" is a good term.

 

[JudgeRightly]

What did Abram agree to, or with?

Abram agreed to God giving him what is recorded in Genesis 15.

Or do you think that God forced those things upon him?

"And [Abram] believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness."

Abram then asked the Lord:

And he said, “Lord God, how shall I know that I will inherit it?”

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 15:8 - New King James Version

And he said, “Lord God, how shall I know that I will inherit it?”

www.biblegateway.com

How can it be a deal if it is just one Person is dealing?

Why can't it be?

Scripture says:

And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 15:17, Genesis 15:18, Genesis 15:19, Genesis 15:20, Genesis 15:21 - New King James Version

And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces.

www.biblegateway.com

It was a completely one-sided covenant, a deal that Abram accepted. Abram did not pass through the animals. Only God did.

Again: Abram only had to accept it, and God would do what He said He would do.

There was nothing Abram had to do to uphold his end of the deal, and so my question, again, to you is, was Abram ever able to back out of the cut deal made between him and God?

What did he have to back out on?

Yes, that's the point I'm making, Hoping.

THERE WASN'T ANYTHING, and thus, he couldn't back out of something that he had no part in establishing. He already accepted God's covenant with him. God will therefore keep His end of the deal.

Abram believed, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

There was no work that he had to do. God doesn't owe him a debt, because Abram didn't walk through the animals with Him. Abram didn't DO anything. He simply believed.

He believed God's promise of an heir from his own body.
God promised, and Abram believed Him.
Is that your "deal" ?

The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

God promised Abram those things in Genesis 15. All Abram had to "do" was believe in God, and He would do those things. Those things have not happened yet, at least not in full.

The point is that Abram did nothing to earn God's yet future doing of those things but believe.

God also promised Abram many descendants, and all the listed lands.
How could Abram back out of promises from God?
What conditions were attached?

That's the point. There WERE NO CONDITIONS!

All Abram had to do was accept that God would do it.

Abram was asleep when God passed between the animal carcasses. There was nothing Abram could do to prevent God from doing what He promised, nor was there any way to force God to do that which He said He would do. God passed through the animal remains of His own volition.

So again, my question to you remains:

Was it ever possible for Abram to back out of the cut deal made with God in Genesis 15?

If so, how?

You said:

I hope I don't back out on the "deal".

If God made a covenant with Abram that Abram could not back out of, not because he wanted to, but because there was no condition on his part for God to fulfill His end of the deal, then what makes you think that the same kind of covenant God made with the world, in that should anyone believe, God will save them, would be any different, in that you who presumably were formerly of the world, would have to do anything in order for God to fulfill His end of the deal, and save you?

The ARROGANCE you have is astounding!

God said "if you believe, you shall be saved," similar to what He told Abram, "if you, Abram, believe, I will make your descendants as innumerable as the stars and grains of sand, and your descendants shall inherit the earth."

Why do you think that those who believe have to do anything in order for God to uphold His end of the deal, when the sacrifice was His own Son, to show us how dedicated He is to keeping His promise!?

What actions do you think indebt God to saving you? How could they ever compare to the sacrifice of God's own Son!?

What things must you do to force God to grant you eternal life?

If God says He will do something unconditionally, who are you to insist on trying to come up with conditions that must be fulfilled?

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 4:1-6 - New King James Version

Abraham Justified by Faith - What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Hoping]

Have you been saved already? Yes or No?

What you call "saved" I call "converted", so yes, I have been converted...in your lingo.
I also know that nothing will be official until our names are found in the book of life.

Before, by stating that you will not be saved until judgement day, you stated that you have not already been saved. Do you want to now tell a different story than that?

No, as what the bible says is that there is a day of judgement yet to come.

Whether you like it or not, that is indeed what you are saying when you say that you are not saved: viz., you are thereby saying that you have never been sealed by the Holy Spirit. You can sit there lying about it all you like, but you're not going to make that fact disappear.

"Saved" and "sealed unto salvation" are two very different things
Paul writes..."And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph 4:30)
The seal is an earnest "payment" on what is yet to come.

You've made it clear that you have no hope, heretic.

I do have hope in Jesus Christ who has washed away my past sins with His own blood.
I have plenty of ammo for the fight ahead of me, and promises like 1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
I just have to keep looking for the promised escapes from temptation.

 

[Hoping]

I have always realized that.

Good, so quit saying you possess something "from in the future".

Falsely equivocating.

Yet costly.

If you can be lost.... you were never saved.

I have been saying that all along.
You just believe in OSAS, so don't think you can still be lost.

The only judgment that I will face is the judgment seat of Christ.
It sounds like you're headed for the white throne judgment.

That will depend on how I obey God, and His Son, on earth.

1Cor 6:9-11 (AKJV/PCE)
(6:9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (6:10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (6:11) And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

If their past sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ, they are no longer thieves, adulterers, or liars.
Providing that their repentance from sin is true, they will not sin again.

Nope. Christ died for my sins... all of them.

How long have you been a non-sinner ?

I am buried with Him in baptism (by the Holy Ghost).

So have I, at my "immersion" into Him and into His death and burial.

 

[Hoping]

Why your sneer quotes around the phrase, "in the Lord"? Are you saying that no one is in the Lord?

I was trying to accentuate the place real Christians reside.

Either one is saved, or he/she is not saved. In the case of one who is saved, why do you say it is wrong for him/her to declare that he/she is saved, since he/she is therein declaring truth? It is never wrong to declare truth.

Salvation won't happen until our names are found in the book of life.
I have a few years to maintain my "residency" until then.
I don't want to go out like Ananias and Sapphira. (Acts 5)
I wonder if they were talking about "already been saved" while they lied to the Holy Spirit in Peter.

 

[Hoping]

Um, every last liar, adulterer, or thief who has been saved from his/her sins of lying, adultery, and thieving. Duh. What a stupid question.

If they are converts to Christianity, they are not liars, or adulterers, or thieves, anymore.
If they are still lying etc., they are not converts to Christ.
They have not been reborn of God's seed, and are still walking in the darkness of 1 John 1.

 

[Hoping]

I hope, on the contrary, that your present faith (which is that of a self-righteous, Christ-denying heretic) does not last through even another minute, and that you become converted to Biblical faith, instead.

You are not alone in hoping I lose my faith that God can keep me pure until the last day.
I forgive you.

 

[7djengo7]

I was trying to accentuate the place real Christians reside.

Salvation won't happen until our names are found in the book of life.

You're a brazen Christ-blasphemer. Here, you are telling us that souls who reside in Christ are nevertheless not saved.

If they are converts to Christianity, they are not liars, or adulterers, or thieves, anymore.
If they are still lying etc., they are not converts to Christ.

You're a self-righteous, brazen liar, so according to you, you are not a convert to Christ.

It's also telling that you left murderers out of your list. Why is that? Oh, yeah, it's because everyone knows that when a man murders even just one person, he spends the rest of his life a murderer...even if he never thereafter murders another soul. I've no doubt that some murderers on death row are converts to Christ--born-again Christians; and guess what, they're still murderers.

 

[Right Divider]

Yet costly.

Your arrogance and self-centeredness know no bounds.
I was talking about God's free gift of salvation and yet YOU make it about the cost to YOU. That is the FALSE EQUIVOCATION that I was talking about.

That is downright blasphemous.

I have been saying that all along.
You just believe in OSAS, so don't think you can still be lost.

I believe the truth, which is that Christ died for my sins.

That will depend on how I obey God, and His Son, on earth.

This is the perfect demonstration of your idea that you can work for you own salvation. You are lost and in need of being saved.

If their past sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ, they are no longer thieves, adulterers, or liars.

Exactly the point.

Providing that their repentance from sin is true, they will not sin again.

Not true. There is no such thing as "repentance from sin" in the Bible.

How long have you been a non-sinner ?

I am saved by Christ, who is the sinless one.

So have I, at my "immersion" into Him and into His death and burial.

So you claim. But your other statements betray you.

 

[7djengo7]

You are not alone in hoping I lose my faith that God can keep me pure until the last day.
I forgive you.

You already made it clear that you don't believe God can/will save you:

My future is in my hands.

No doubt you asininely expect/intend to walk straight up to God and demand He hand you a pen so you can use your hands to write your name into His book:

Salvation won't happen until our names are found in the book of life.

I also know that nothing will be official until our names are found in the book of life.

"There, God! See, I wrote my name into Your book, so I'm now officially saved! Just wanted to let You know that You did not save me, and that I saved myself!"

(Words of @Hoping's "savior" in red print.)

 

[Hoping]

You're a brazen Christ-blasphemer. Here, you are telling us that souls who reside in Christ are nevertheless not saved.

They will be saved, if they endure till the end.

You're a self-righteous, brazen liar, so according to you, you are not a convert to Christ.

My righteousness is that of God.
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:

Do you "believe" ?

It's also telling that you left murderers out of your list. Why is that?

I didn't feel like writing out a bunch of sins that could be generalized by two or three examples.

Oh, yeah, it's because everyone knows that when a man murders even just one person, he spends the rest of his life a murderer...even if he never thereafter murders another soul.

Thank God for rebirth, eh ?
The ex-murderer, liar, thief, gets a new life wherein to do only righteousness.

I've no doubt that some murderers on death row are converts to Christ--born-again Christians; and guess what, they're still murderers.

They are indeed, unless they have been reborn of God's seed.

 

[Hoping]

Your arrogance and self-centeredness know no bounds.
I was talking about God's free gift of salvation and yet YOU make it about the cost to YOU. That is the FALSE EQUIVOCATION that I was talking about.
That is downright blasphemous.

Thanks be to God for the free gift.
I will continue to pray for all those who left me behind.

I believe the truth, which is that Christ died for my sins.

Yeah, me too.
I am so thankful for His suffering and death on my part that I will remain faithful to Him until the end.

This is the perfect demonstration of your idea that you can work for you own salvation. You are lost and in need of being saved.

As salvation won't be mine until the redemption of my vessel, your point is moot.

Exactly the point.

I am glad we agree.

Not true. There is no such thing as "repentance from sin" in the Bible.

"But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Matt 9:13)
"When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Mark 2:17)
"And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed." (2 Cor 12:21)
Not all wisdom comes in your format.

I am saved by Christ, who is the sinless one.

He was the first.
And now, everybody "in Him" is sinless too.
Thanks be to God .

So you claim. But your other statements betray you.

Well, lets see...
If I was actually crucified with Him, (Gal 5:24), at my "immersion" into His death and burial, (Rom 6:3), and then raised with Him to walk in newness of life, (Rom 6:4), what kind of life do you think that would be ?
Full of sin and any kind of wickedness ?
Making accommodations for continued sinning ?
Leaving my neighbors to fail ?
Neglecting the hungry or orphaned ?

 

[Hoping]

You already made it clear that you don't believe God can/will save you:

I thought you were going to supply some proof of your POV.
But you didn't.

No doubt you asininely expect/intend to walk straight up to God and demand He hand you a pen so you can use your hands to write your name into His book:
"There, God! See, I wrote my name into Your book, so I'm now officially saved! Just wanted to let You know that You did not save me, and that I saved myself!"
(Words of @Hoping's "savior" in red print.)

Hardly.
I won't even be able to look at Him until I find our that He didn't erase my name from the book of life.

 

[7djengo7]

You're a brazen Christ-blasphemer. Here, you are telling us that souls who reside in Christ are nevertheless not saved.

They will be saved, if they endure till the end.

You are lying, you self-righteous sinner. Because you understand you cannot deal rationally with it, you're vainly pretending that you've missed the very clear and elementary objection I made against your Christ-despising heresy: viz., that you are telling us that souls who right now are residing in Christ are nevertheless right now not saved.

Among other things, according to your retarded heresy, even Paul the Apostle was never saved before he died, has never yet been saved, and is right now not saved!

 

[7djengo7]

The ex-murderer

What's an "ex-murderer"?

Is John Wilkes Booth an "ex-murderer"?
Booth: "I used to be a murderer. Every 14 April 1865, I used to go to Ford's Theatre and murder Abe Lincoln, but I stopped doing that, so now I am an ex-murderer."

 

[7djengo7]

Salvation won't happen until our names are found in the book of life.

I won't even be able to look at Him until I find our that He didn't erase my name from the book of life.

Aha! No one has ever been saved, and no one will ever be saved until @Hoping finds their name in God's book. Got it.

 

[Right Divider]

Thanks be to God for the free gift.

Amen!

I will continue to pray for all those who left me behind.

Whatever that means.

Yeah, me too.
I am so thankful for His suffering and death on my part that I will remain faithful to Him until the end.

Pride is your problem.

"But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Matt 9:13)
"When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Mark 2:17)
"And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed." (2 Cor 12:21)
Not all wisdom comes in your format.

Word searches are kid stuff. None of that says anything about "repentance from sin".

He was the first.

And only at this point in time. You are not God.

And now, everybody "in Him" is sinless too.

In position, but not in practice.

Since you continue to spout nonsense, I'm putting you back on my ignore list.

 

[Hoping]

You are lying, you self-righteous sinner. Because you understand you cannot deal rationally with it, you're vainly pretending that you've missed the very clear and elementary objection I made against your Christ-despising heresy: viz., that you are telling us that souls who right now are residing in Christ are nevertheless right now not saved.

Among other things, according to your retarded heresy, even Paul the Apostle was never saved before he died, has never yet been saved, and is right now not saved!

What you are saying is that one doesn't need to remain faithful till Jesus returns, and will be given eternal life anyway.
Which god is most inclined to like that idea ?

 

[Hoping]

What's an "ex-murderer"?

Is John Wilkes Booth an "ex-murderer"?
Booth: "I used to be a murderer. Every 14 April 1865, I used to go to Ford's Theatre and murder Abe Lincoln, but I stopped doing that, so now I am an ex-murderer."

It is one who has repented of sin and been baptized into Christ and into His death and burial.
He has been reborn of God's seed.
He is a new creature that never murdered anyone.
Had Booth done that, he would have surrendered and accepted the punishment for his past life's crime.