Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
God did not hate Esau. God hated what Esau stood for. God does not hate anyone, if he did he would not be righteous. God loved Jacob, because Jacob loved God. It is only natural to love those that love you. The scripture does NOT say that God condemned Esau to hell. There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible that says God condemns anyone to hell. If you find yourself in hell it will be because you rejected God's great free gift of salvation that has been provided by Jesus Christ, not because you were predestinated there. The God of the Bible is not the tyrant God of Calvinism that sends billions to hell before they are born. It is not humanly possible to have saving faith in the God of Calvinism. What Calvinist have faith in is a doctrine, not God or Christ. A doctrine that was conceived in the twisted mind of a heretic.
 
Eagles Wings

Eagles Wings

New member
Ask Mr. Religion said:
Rather than dealing with what has been presented as the proper interpretation of the passage in question, 1 John 2:2, the only rejoinder you have offered is but moving the goal posts to yet more improperly interpreted Scripture and cavils about Calvinism.

For that matter, you haven't provided a single argument to support your claims, e.g., the atonement is universal. Nor have you dealt with what I have provided as analysis of the actual passage in question. Moving to yet another verse is evidence you have no proper answer.

No one can provide an answer to a nonexistent argument. Unless and until you or others like you put an actual argument on the table, there's nothing for anyone to evaluate.

Too many non-Calvinists take crucial intellectual shortcuts.

Critics of Calvinism need to master the difference between assertions and arguments. They need to become aware of their unexamined assumptions. When they are pressed to examine them, things usually start off well enough. But as the discussion continues wherein they are asked to dig deeper into what they are asserting without careful examination, the discussion quickly turns into personal attacks; most likely borne of the cognitive dissonance that has erupted within themselves. At that point it usually becomes a matter of fight or flight. Being a good steward of one's time granted by God dictates not to waste one's efforts on those that have shown themselves to be unwilling or unable to engage at the needed substantive level for sacred topics.

The non-Calvinist needs to learn that just because something seems to be wrong to them, that creates no presumption that their perception is correct. Non-Calvinist critics need to become aware of how often they beg the question.

Unfortunately, these folks usually shield themselves from scrutiny by playing to a sympathetic audience or airing their views in a controlled setting (which they themselves can control). They don't usually risk direct and substantive engagement with others who disagree and who happen to be outside their own weight class. And for good reason. :AMR:

Not a few non-Calvinists like to merely nakedly assert, usually involving some lifted Scripture quotes with nice boldface or coloring, without providing and actual argument and then sit back. After all, "Scripture says this, see my boldface therein? That settles it. I win!" :AMR1:

It is simply not the Calvinist's job to make their argument for these sorts, as they are but intellectual freeloaders. Why should anyone enable their intellectual laziness by doing the heavy-lifting they themselves should be doing? Unless there's a well-provided reason to think their view of this or that matter of doctrine is incompatible with God's goodness, love, or whatever, there's nothing for the Calvinist to disprove. We literally have nothing to work with in a real discussion.

Accordingly, it is becoming an increasingly rare occasion for me to actually engage another unless that person has honestly shown themselves to be willing to stay put until the matter is driven to ground versus retreating behind verbal abuse when unable to furnish even prima facie reasons for their objections, toadying to the crowd, lachrymose claims of hurt feelings, refusal to dig deeper into the topic and interact with the same, and other what-nots that purportedly gives them a rationalization to avoid actual discussion of specifics.

I have no problem explaining that which I hold dear to the sincere person wanting to know more about some topic or even question what I believe. It just seems to me in the public arena some are unwilling to be seen as willing to learn something new or increase their knowledge, especially if the person they are directing their mere assertions and opinions toward is the imaginary Bogeyman, the Calvinist.

AMR
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Excellent post. This is a keeper.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
God did not hate Esau. God hated what Esau stood for. God does not hate anyone, if he did he would not be righteous. God loved Jacob, because Jacob loved God. It is only natural to love those that love you. The scripture does NOT say that God condemned Esau to hell. There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible that says God condemns anyone to hell. If you find yourself in hell it will be because you rejected God's great free gift of salvation that has been provided by Jesus Christ, not because you were predestinated there. The God of the Bible is not the tyrant God of Calvinism that sends billions to hell before they are born. It is not humanly possible to have saving faith in the God of Calvinism. What Calvinist have faith in is a doctrine, not God or Christ. A doctrine that was conceived in the twisted mind of a heretic.
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False statements not found in scripture!

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app
 
Nanja

Nanja

Well-known member
God's Truth said:
Show the scripture that says exactly that.



That scripture does not say that.

You proved you do not speak what the scriptures say.
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Nothing, no action whatsoever, an unregenerate / carnal person / natural man does, has the ability to please God. And that includes all the works of the flesh, i.e. obeying, believing, calling on the name of the Lord, or exercising his own faith in a futile attempt to get himself saved.

Rom. 8:5-8
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But when God Gives a person Spiritual Life in New Birth, he is given the Faith which is a fruit of the Spirit of God Gal. 5:22 : No longer of the flesh, but of the Spirit.

Rom. 8:9-10
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1 Cor. 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom. 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.


Only a person who has True Spiritual Faith given in New Birth submits to God!
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Nanja said:
Nothing, no action whatsoever, an unregenerate / carnal person / natural man does, has the ability to please God. And that includes all the works of the flesh, i.e. obeying, believing, calling on the name of the Lord, or exercising his own faith in a futile attempt to get himself saved.

Rom. 8:5-8
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But when God Gives a person Spiritual Life in New Birth, he is given the Faith which is a fruit of the Spirit of God Gal. 5:22 : No longer of the flesh, but of the Spirit.

Rom. 8:9-10
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1 Cor. 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom. 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.


Only a person who has True Spiritual Faith given in New Birth submits to God!
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Faith and the Holy Spirit are only given to those who hear and believe the Gospel. You cannot be a Calvinist and believe the Gospel. They are like two opposites.

"So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" which is the Gospel. Romans 10;17.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
Sometimes John does use kosmos to mean the world of fallen sinful humanity. That is a valid interpretation but it is precisely for sinners that Christ died. That has been one of my main points in this whole discussion. Christ was the atoning sacrifice "not for OUR sins" (believers like John and his readers) but also for the sin of the "whole world" for all the ungodly who did not know God, even for those whom God knew would never believe and enjoy the benefits of the cross. That it is the magnanimity and justice of God.
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The World in Jn 3:16 is Gods Elect/Sheep ![/QUOTE]

Here is what a commentary says about this particular verse
16. For God so loved the world. Christ opens up the first cause, and, as it were, the source of our salvation, and he does so, that no doubt may remain; for our minds cannot find calm repose, until we arrive at the unmerited love of God. As the whole matter of our salvation must not be sought any where else than in Christ, so we must see whence Christ came to us, and why he was offered to be our Savior. Both points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish
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Notice that this scholar uses "world" and "human race" interchangeably.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
Nanja said:
There are two seeds of humanity, the Seed of Christ Gal. 3:16, 29, and the seed of the devil Mat. 13:38-39.

The Potter Rom. 9:21 made them according to His Perfect Will.

Dan. 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
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When the Bible refers to humans being "children" or "progeny" of a spiritual being it is talking about their character which includes the way they think and the pattern of their behavior.

44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies (John 8:44)

Jesus' enemies were "of their father the Devil" because they like he were enemies of the truth and, like the Devil himself they wanted to murder Jesus. The logical connection between them and Satan's nature was that the demons had been at work in their lives. This process is supported in the NT (e.g., Ephesians 2:2)

Instead of accepting this straight forward explanation Calvin refers to a "sovereign" work of God whereby the heavenly Potter shapes them to become liars and murderers. The problem is, God is Holy, Righteous, Just, and loving. He would have no part in making anyone like Satan whose ways He abhors and who is in utter opposition to Him.

Now we come to what is a really staggering proposition - that making people who reflect the Satanic nature is God's perfect will. I thought God's perfect will was that men repent of their sin and believe upon Jesus. I thought His perfect will was that we love Him with all our hearts and our neighbors as ourselves. However determinism did not originate in the Bible. The teaching was imported into Christian thinking from a system utterly foreign to Christianity.

Your interpretation does not work because it starts with the wrong premise. Paul was not talking about the salvation of individuals in Romans 9, he was telling the story of chosen people, specifically Israel and then the Gentile believers who were grafted in

Dan. 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

This does not mean God is "free" to behave contrary to His good nature. That is not a matter of His power but His nature. God does not and would not fabricate evil. He might create something capable of being evil but all that is needed for that to happen is to give the creature a will.
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

New member
Nanja, you are not careful enough when it comes to saying what the scriptures say. Try to be more careful.
Nanja said:
Nothing, no action whatsoever, an unregenerate / carnal person / natural man does,
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You have just confused some things here, for according to the scriptures in the KJV the word ‘regenerate’ refers to a saved person. God does NOT save unbelievers. As for you saying a carnal person and a natural man---that is about people who only live to please their flesh. Not everyone only lives to please their flesh. Look around you. You must be able to reason.

Nanja said:
has the ability to please God. And that includes all the works of the flesh, i.e. obeying, believing, calling on the name of the Lord, or exercising his own faith in a futile attempt to get himself saved.
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There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible that says no one can obey and there is no scripture that says no one can believe. You also make a very false statement when you say it would not please God to obey, believe, and call on Him. You are going directly against His Word.

It is beyond absurd and to say what you did that God tells us to do something and doing it would cause Him grief or a nonchalant reaction. .

Nanja said:
Rom. 8:5-8
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
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How many times do I have to give you the scriptures that prove we are not just flesh and that not everyone only just wants to please their flesh?

Here are the scriptures again that prove we have a spirit too.

Hebrews 12:9, Zechariah 12:1, and Malachi 2:15.


Nanja said:
But when God Gives a person Spiritual Life in New Birth, he is given the Faith which is a fruit of the Spirit of God Gal. 5:22 : No longer of the flesh, but of the Spirit.

Rom. 8:9-10
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1 Cor. 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom. 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.


Only a person who has True Spiritual Faith given in New Birth submits to God!
Click to expand...
Again, no scripture says what you claim.
Show me the scripture that says God saves unbelievers and the scripture that says we are born without the ability to believe.
 
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