God's Truth
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Judaizers taught circumcision. You are too ignorant and unstable to see that I do not preach that. Show one time where I told someone to get circumcised or to observe special days.
Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Judaizers taught circumcision. You are too ignorant and unstable to see that I do not preach that. Show one time where I told someone to get circumcised or to observe special days.
There is only one law, it is God's law. It covers ever faucet of ones life. The law is the very nature and character of God. No one can keep it or do it, it is literally impossible. The law demands perfection, Jesus said, "Be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect" Anything short of perfect obedience to God's Holy Law is sin. Sin is a transgression of the law. Paul said to the Galatians, "Tell me that you desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?" Galatians 4:21. The law will damn you to hell. GT claims that he keeps the law. He is under the law and will be judged by it. Where there is law there is judgment. Where there is judgment there is condemnation.
Neither circumcision (a work) nor uncircumcision (absence of a work) avails.
Only being in Christ (a new creature in Him BY Him ALONE) avails.
Your repent, or turn from sin in order to GET saved, is...a work.
And your repent, or turn from sin anytime you sin AFTER you are saved, in order to STAY saved, is...a work.
Yours is Galatianism's works error but with the circumcision as a work, replaced by you with the idea of turn from sin.
You just can't get it through your head that although literal, the circumcision/uncircumcision issue was actually about a principle or rule of thumb.
This one...
Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
That is the same work/no work principle in the following...
Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Circumcision was the work as a problem back then at Galatia.
Today, it is YOUR kind of "work FOR salvation, and work in order to STAY saved."
Today, it is YOUR repent, or turn from sin, in order to GET saved - THAT IS...a work.
...and YOUR repent, or turn from sin anytime you sin AFTER you are saved in order to STAY saved, IS...a work.
You simply do not get this error of yours do you?
That what you have done is replace the circumcision (a work) with your own.
Yours is just another version of every nut out there who preaches works FOR salvation, and works in order to STAY saved.
Never mind the following - you - can - not - see - it - for - what - it - is.
Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Put away your Total Gym, GT.
The Believer is...COMPLETE IN...HIM.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
In short - Romans 5:8.
God's Truth
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There is only one Way, and it has ALWAYS been to obey God, no matter what God says.
You are so ignorant and entrapped. I have given you scriptures that say people obeyed, and even blamelessly.
Jesus was not being ironic. Jesus was telling people to obey.
He was talking about circumcision. The scriptures say you are ignorant; see Peter 3:16.
Can't you retain anything? There is a new law, and I obey it.
God's Truth
New member
You have a lot of unnecessary words, because I have never taught to circumcise.
You will never ever get in him until you do what he says. Start by humbling yourself.
That is right, it is, and that is what we are supposed to do.
Peter says unstable and ignorant people teach against obeying. I agree; see 2 Peter 3:16, and 17.
We have to work. Listen to Paul.
hahahhahahahaha You are embarrassing. I do not teach circumcumciion---and, Paul did not rebuke any Galatians from obeying God.
You had it explained to you but that snare Satan has on you is more to you than God's Truth.
You say Paul says no works as in do nothing? hahahahaha
What is this:
Colossians 3:23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.
Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart,you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
You are so blind and ensnared.
Paul says to train.
Why do you go against Paul?
1 Corinthians 9:25
Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.
God's Truth
New member
Danoh, where did you go? Come back and deal with the Truth. You always take off and act like no one rebuked you.
You can't obey God's law. Your very best is still sin.
This is why Paul said that you have to be changed from your Adamic body to your spiritual body, Romans 15:35-58.
what you are now is a hypocrite.
God's Truth
New member
That scripture is about our resurrected bodies. How about this, you will not be given that resurrected body to live with God eternally if you do not obey Him now.
Shasta
Well-known member
I am glad that you have affirmed the teaching that people, before they are saved, are sinners who need salvation. I hope your friend B57 comes to understand this as well. This agrees with Calvin and Luther both of whom described their own conversion experiences.
The scriptures say people will be judged by what they have said (Matthew 12:37), done (2 Corinthians 5:10-11) and by whether they have rejected or embrace the truth of the gospel (John 3:18-19). In other words, they are condemned for what they chose during their life on earth not for some choice GOD made in the councils of eternity. If God's prior decree were the primary reason for their condemnation then surely Jesus would have said so.
Your statement that “the Elect were (past tense) not condemned” which I take to be an expression of your belief that men are relegated to damnation in the inner counsel of God “before the world began.” The problem is that the scripture you have cited does not back up your claim.
…31 Now if we judged ourselves properly, we would not come under judgment. 32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.
(1 Corinthians 11:32)
Paul is not speaking about something God decreed before the foundation of the world. He is saying that Christians in this life must submit to the discipline of the Lord. Not allowing our sins to be exposed and corrected in this manner can result in the Christian being brought into judgement along with the world. This scenario is inconsistent with the doctrines of T.U.L.I.P.
Your second reference states the following:
19…God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s trespasses against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5:19)
Since the idea of God reconciling the world disagrees with your theology you have to import words and ideas not contained in the text. While the term "world" can mean many things it is not used to represent the entire body of chosen people. Often it represents the community of people who are in darkness (1 John 2:15, Romans 12:2, James 4:4).
The people to whom Paul addressed this letter were, for the most part, uneducated. They were not theologians sensitized to the nuances of doctrinal code words. They would have understood the Apostle’s language in its plainest sense as it was commonly used unless some obvious context clue suggested otherwise or unless another meaning altogether was in common use. None of these situations came into play in this verse. To make the commonly used term “world” into the theologically specific “world of the elect” you have had to use eisegesis. The idea of an elect world is not in scripture. It is your way of getting around the many verses that contradict Calvinism.
Initially you said people are “by nature children of wrath” until they are saved. Then you say that the “elect” comprise an “eternally forgiven world.” However, if a person is eternally forgiven then there is no time - past, present, or future - when they are not forgiven. Then the “chosen” ones would be at once children of mercy and “children of wrath.” This not only contradicts what you said at the beginning of this post, it is a contradiction within itself.
beloved57
Well-known member
Nanja
Well-known member
Your assumption is incorrect.
The Elect were Saved / Justified from Everlasting!
Re-read my post:
beloved57
Well-known member
It shows that he didn't understand your post at all!
Nanja
Well-known member
Yep, not at all!
Shasta
Well-known member
No one is justified from eternity past. On what scripture do you base this opinion? The Bible says
…9...that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved
(Romans 10:10)
You cannot believe anything before you are born. Salvation occurs in life. Your idea that a person is saved by virtue of some prenatal status is simply unfounded.
If they are born "lost," in "spiritual darkness" as "children of wrath" then the "elect" could not be said to be "eternally forgiven" Their salvation would be like a ray which has a beginning point which goes on forever but has a beginning point.
I know about your belief that other people were condemned from all eternity even before they were conceived. If you think that is a mystery then you are wrong.
Let me remind you of what I already said. When people are judged in the Bible it is for what they have done, for the words of their mouth and for not believing in Jesus. God never tells them they are judged for a selection process that took place before the earth was made. Yet if that is the primary reason why would He not have mentioned it?
I have already taken time to consider 1 Corinthians 11:32 though you totally ignored my response. The scripture says:
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
(1 Corinthians 11:32)
If you just look at this verse as it is written you will see that Paul is talking about allowing the Lord expose and correct the sin in our lives so that we might not be condemned with the world in the Day of Judgment. This has nothing whatsoever to do with somethinthat happened in the distant past. The chastisement takes place in the present in order to prevent something (judgment) from happening in the future.
You have also misinterpreted 2 Corinthians 5:19
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
This is speaking of the time when Christ was in the world doing the work of forgiving those who believed on them and putting them back into relationship with God. This was not accomplished by a one time action because God is still "reconciling" people to Himself. The "ministry of reconciliation" is being carried out by all those who share the word with others. If reconciling people to God, or "bringing them back into right relationship with Him" is ongoing that means that the world needs to be converted, that is, they are not in right relationship already.
The term "eternally forgiven world" cannot be found anywhere in scripture. You have shamelessly made up that term in order to alter the all-inclusive definition of the word "world." Apparently this is the way Calvinists handle the scriptures. When it does not agree with your theology you reverse engineer the meaning of the words, going as far as to add words to make it fit.
Finally here is the other scripture you cited.
Romans 8:1
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Apparently you believe this verse is saying you possess perfect positional righteousness that is irrevocable. Actually that is not what it is saying. Those who are free from condemnation are those who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." The word "walk" indicates your actions, how you conduct yourself in daily life. Those who are walking according to the flesh are granted no immunity from condemnation.
Nanja
Well-known member
Shasta
Well-known member
Is saying something is nonsense supposed to pass for an argument? Why don't either one of you answer the points I have made?
beloved57
Well-known member
Is saying nonsense suppose to pass for an argument?
Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app
Shasta
Well-known member
No one in the Early Church ever accused James of being a Judaizer. The Judaizers taught that to serve Christ believers had be circumcised and follow the practices of the Mosaic covenant. The Church had to address the issue of whether Gentile believers had to become Jews and they settled it (Acts 15:9-10). James who was a leader of the Jerusalem Church was present and in agreement with the Council's decision.
Shasta
Well-known member
Try making a coherent argument - like explaining WHY you think I am wrong. You and I both know you are unable to do that.
Yes they did. Read Galatians and then Acts 15.