Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Lon
Well-known member
I'm a bit different in my approach to Limited Atonement.
1) Limited Atonement is genuinely limited in some fashion.
A)The Lord Jesus Christ would have only died for those before His Atonement who had placed their faith in God. Hebrews tells us it was their faith that was credited to them as righteousness. Pharoah, for instance, was not atoned for.
B)If God is Omniscient, it means He knows precisely who He died for.
2) I believe John 3:16 means "all," but it is clear from John 3 that some love[d] darkness. Christ is either the chief Cornerstone, or the stone of stumbling, respectively.
3)Atonement means "made right with God." Only those who belong to Him are made right, so the full application of Jesus' work on the cross is also limited in scope. Some suggest I'm not a Calvinist. Logically, this stance leads to the classic stance of Calvinism, but explained this way, it is, I think better understood and perhaps has some or much agreement. -Lon
Every Christian is a Calvinist, no matter how much that may try to deny itlain:
They may even know it themselves when they say the Lord's Prayer-
and the Lord is so much sovereign then_
God's Truth
New member
Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. That means all have a chance to be saved, through Jesus.
God's grace is NOT accessed unless one has living faith in Jesus.
God's Truth
New member
Every Christian is a Calvinist, no matter how much that may try to deny it
They may even know it themselves when they say the Lord's Prayer-
and the Lord is so much sovereign then_
A person would have to leave the teachings of God and then go by a mere man called John Calvin. Who would do that except for an ensnared man?
God's Truth
New member
None of that is from God.
Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11. In Acts 26:17 Jesus tells Paul he is sending him to the Jews and Gentiles to OPEN THEIR EYES and turn them from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. How do you think Paul is going to open the eyes of the Jews and the Gentiles? Remember, faith comes from hearing the word, and Jesus sent Paul to preach the gospel. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
We are accepted by God by our believing and obeying Him.
Acts 10:35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.
Jesus reveals himself to those who believe and obey him.
Acts 14:21 The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him."
Shasta
Well-known member
I am glad to hear you say this. Many other Calvinists here seem to almost deny the conversion experience, though Luther and Calvin did not. It seems that these people's minds are fixed on what went on in the mind of God "before the foundation of the world" to the neglect of how they are choosing to live and walk with Him in the here and now.
When I have asked about the "sheep" are I am told that they are a pre-determined class of people. However in Matthew 25 Jesus identifies such people as those who have actively loved and served "the least of His brothers" during their lives on earth. This was why these people ultimately inherited eternal life. He does not identify His sheep by their predetermined status in the mind of God though if that were the central reason for their fate He certainly would have said so.
This does not mean that we should go out and do good works in order to get eternal life. The sheep were quite unaware of just when they had fed, clothed and visited the Lord. Their actions came out of the relationship of love, faith and obedience they had with the Vine. I do not know about others but I personally have no confidence in my own ability to be like Christ but by abiding in Him his Life produces the image in and through me. Though "without Him we can do nothing" mankind is not totally helpless. At any time any one of us can receive the grace God has extended to us and receiving that help is not the same as performing meritorious works to earn salvation.
As far as the thief on the cross, a lot of theology has been based on a man about whom we know very little. Faithfulness in the relationship we have is the criteria by which God will judge us not the quantity of our good works. On the other hand, dead faith, like all dead things is inactive and produces nothing worthwhile.
The "helpless" aspect of our experience has to do with our "inability" to produce spiritual fruit independently from Him. This does not mean we are unable to make choices like "yielding our members to Him (Romans 6:13, Galatians 5:25) This "walk" of yielding is a continuation of that very first step we took when we first came to know Him (Colossians 2:6). This abiding relationship means obeying Christ from day to day while continuing to depend on Him for the power to do so(Phil 2:13)
My son-in-law has attempted to use the old reductio ad absurdum argument, asking me if I happen to tell a lie or stub my toe and curse, am I lost? If so, do I need to be saved again? Well in the parables and the Epistles we see that it is not the commission of a single sin that causes a believer to be disinherited but falling into habitual unrepentant lifestyle of sin.
This is clear in the John's writing when he differentially uses present tense Greek verbs which denote ongoing activity and aorist verbs which are used for single acts. Hebrews gives many warnings to believers not to harden their hearts so they will not end up falling into sin and from there into unbelief. Even Luther and Augustine retained the idea of apostasy which is what all the ECF before them had taught. In undermining that teaching Calvin opened the door for antinomianism which I see being played out all the time.
God IS patient, just and loving. God as Calvin conceived Him, is angry with people arbitrarily not because they have rejected HIM but because He has first rejected THEM. For example, by interpreting Esau (in Romans 9) to be emblematic of all unregenerate men it follows that God hates the majority of all human beings who have ever lived. Even while they are in the womb, before they know anything, most people are pre-selected to be shaped by God's hands into vessels of wrath. The purpose of this is supposedly so that God can demonstrate His power by venting His anger on people whom He never gave grace to, who could not have chosen redemption anyway because Christ never died for them. The God you have come to know in your personal life has more love and justice than the one Calvin conceptualized to fit into his system.
Shasta
Well-known member
I wonder if a person in his Church has to wait around until God "performs the miracle" of opening His eyes. Even then, he must wonder "Am I just accepting a 'set of theological facts' or are the eyes of my heart being opened?" How could they tell? Would they need to have some emotion to verify what is real? I do not recall the Apostles telling people to wait and see what God would do in them. They always called on people to repent and believe right then and there.
marhig
Well-known member
Every true Christian isn't anything else but a follower of Christ!Every Christian is a Calvinist, no matter how much that may try to deny it
They may even know it themselves when they say the Lord's Prayer-
and the Lord is so much sovereign then_
Nang
TOL Subscriber
That is reiteration of God's Law. God COMMANDS all humanity to repent and place their faith in Him.
Failure to do so is universal . . . no man has the heart or will to believe God and repent of their sins, according to the Law. Romans 3:9-20
This is the first part of the Gospel message. All men are sinners and all fall short of the glory of God.
Only those who are regenerated by the grace and power of God, and gifted with faith and repentance, will manifest these fruits of obedience in their new lives.
There are multitudes sitting in churches who have never been born again by the Spirit of God, and who continue in their sins; hiding them in gross hypocrisy. Many, many counterfeit Christians who talk the talk and fake the walk.
God knows who are His, and all of them will prove to truly believe in Jesus Christ unto everlasting life. John 3:16
If you've ever lived any sort of life where you've gotten on your knees and prayed for God's direction, you have known the Calvinism in God- because you hope that He is in control.
That's specifically why I brought up the Lord's Prayer.
Shasta
Well-known member
Every Christian is a Calvinist, no matter how much that may try to deny it
They may even know it themselves when they say the Lord's Prayer-
and the Lord is so much sovereign then_
God's omnipotence is an attribute. "Sovereignty," a word never mentioned in the Bible, refers to a divine policy - that of controlling all things including the minds and wills of His creatures. That God could have so arranged the universe I will allow, that He DID does not comport with the whole of scripture. It is an alien concept imported from Manichaeism and grafted onto Church theology like a parasitic mistletoe by Augustine of Hippo whom both Calvin and Luther looked to as a teacher and authority.
If God had decided to control the universe and mankind in the way you suggest, there would be no need to pray the "Lord's prayer" or any other prayer, for that matter, because all events would be sovereignly decreed by God As Calvinist S. Lewis Johnson once said, prayer does not change the mind of God. Ironically I heard this on a series about prayer.
Now there is a Day and Hour reserved for the parousia and I do not expect God will change that date just because we pray for it. For this reason I see this part of the prayer as an expression of longing and expectancy like the cry "Maranatha"
Other parts of the Lord's prayer like "give us this day our daily bread" do need to be prayed. James 4:1 says that "we do not have because we do not ask." It sounds like James believed prayer could move God to answer a request He otherwise would not have answered.
The phrase "forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who sin against us" tells us that when we sin we need to ask God's forgiveness meaning that forgiveness is conditioned upon our confession. If what many Calvinists say is right and all sin-debt past present and future is forgiven in the moment a person first believes there would be no need to continue asking this. The fact that we need to from time to time shows that forgiveness and cleansing are ongoing (1 John 1:9)
"Lead us not into temptation"
"Deliver us from evil."
Do you really think we have been given no input into God's plan. If that is so then why would He present this proposition to people most of whom were uneducated and unsophisticated theologically? Jesus knew how to communicate with His children and unless there is some reason not to, I am inclined to take Him literally.
Numbers23:19
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
Respectively, that He does not repent.
God's will is illustrated only a couple of times in Scripture as bending to ours, and when you consider all the other times He goes by His own soreign will, you must conclude that when we pray- it is part of God's providence altogether. When He gives us an option, He has preordained the choice we will ultimately make.
marhig
Well-known member
No I'm not a Calvinist, I'm a follower of Christ. I'd never even heard of Calvin until I came hear. And to be honest the things that I've heard that he did to others, are far from Christ.
We don't need to know anything about Calvin to follow Christ, we need to do the will of God.
St. Augustine is the author of Calvinism really- he was Calvin's theological rock, in a sense.
You don't find value in Augustine either?
marhig
Well-known member
Who is saint Augustine? I've never heard of him, i only read the Bible and my rock is Christ!
