California lawmakers seek to end 'personal belief' vaccine exemptions

[elohiym]

as a society, we have been so successful in overcoming these diseases that there's no longer a cultural memory of the potential severity of them ...

Do you imagine there were tetanus and hepatitis A and B epidemics?

Why should vaccines for tetanus and hepatitis be mandated for school attendance?

 

[elohiym]

... someone stupid enough not to vaccinate their kids is posing a health risk to the public--that much seems pretty undeniable.

No. It's an arguable claim that you have provided no reasoning or evidence to support.

Presently, children (and adults) receiving the pertussis vaccination present a public health risk because Acellular pertussis vaccination enhances B. parapertussis colonization.

There's more wrong with the DTaP vaccination than that, but what more do I have to present to prove my claim? Would you inject your child with that stuff, putting not only her at risk for Whooping cough but everyone else in the school?

 

[elohiym]

Vaccines are a blessing.

All of them, huh?

They're a cure.

Do you really believe that the DTaP is a cure for those infections?

They don't cause autism.

Yet judges consulting with physicians have determined that vaccines have caused autism in at least some people. So your claim doesn't hold.

And it takes a special kind of reckless, borderline suicidal stupidity to argue against them.

What is your argument for mandating the DTaP vaccination in schools?

 

[elohiym]

...someone stupid enough not to vaccinate their kids is posing a health risk to the public...

Anyone who believes that better have all their immunizations up to date, and better get tested yearly to assess his need for boosters, else he is just as much a health risk to school children when they get out of school and interact with the public.

 

[resodko]

Do you imagine there were tetanus and hepatitis A and B epidemics?

yes

Tetanus

Epidemiology

In 2013 it caused about 59,000 deaths – down from 356,000 in 1990.[4] Tetanus – in particular, the neonatal form – remains a significant public health problem in non-industrialized countries with 59,000 newborns worldwide dying in 2008 as a result of neonatal tetanus.[23][24] In the United States, from 2000 through 2007 an average of 31 cases were reported per year.[3] Nearly all of the cases in the United States occur in unimmunized individuals or individuals who have allowed their inoculations to lapse.[3]

we don't think of tetanus as the deadly scourge that it can be because it's so well controlled in the US

with vaccinations

Why should vaccines for tetanus and hepatitis be mandated for school attendance?

why should children be protected from deadly diseases? :freak:

 

[Granite]

Anyone who believes that better have all their immunizations up to date, and better get tested yearly to assess his need for boosters, else he is just as much a health risk to school children when they get out of school and interact with the public.

If you want your kid to get measles, knock yourself out.

 

[User Name]

According to the reports, at least five of the people that contracted measles in Disneyland were fully vaccinated.

How many people do you suppose would have contracted measles if no one had been vaccinated?

 

[resodko]

According to the reports, at least five of the people that contracted measles in Disneyland were fully vaccinated.

Why force people to have vaccinations that don't work?

link?


never mind - I found it

the vaccination series isn't expected to confer 100% immunity

two doses is considered to confer immunity to 97% of the population

 

[rexlunae]

No. Doctors tell people to eat better, eat right, etc., because the consensus is that what you eat effects your health. Dr. Price travelled to communities where disease was uncommon and studied their diets to see what the diets had in common.

That isn't what you said. You said that they were "free from disease". There's a bit of a difference between free of disease, and relatively healthy.

It is reasonable to claim that if you eat like a healthy person you should have similar results, so maybe that's why doctors are pushing the idea, too.

It's a promising avenue and worth study if you can find it, but without an understanding of the underlying reasons, that's a little too simplistic. It's like assuming that because Japanese people live statistically longer than other people, you can get the same benefit from eating rice. There could be other factors that you don't know about.

I doubt it. The Weston Price Foundation is a non-profit organization.

That doesn't mean it doesn't make money for him. Non-profits are one of the well-known ways to make money. Did he even publish the book through the foundation?

 

[Arthur Brain]

No. It's an arguable claim that you have provided no reasoning or evidence to support.

Presently, children (and adults) receiving the pertussis vaccination present a public health risk because Acellular pertussis vaccination enhances B. parapertussis colonization.

There's more wrong with the DTaP vaccination than that, but what more do I have to present to prove my claim? Would you inject your child with that stuff, putting not only her at risk for Whooping cough but everyone else in the school?

How much is this corroborated do you know? I had an adverse reaction as a child to the whooping cough vaccination (1 of 3 injections) where after the first our doctor informed my parents that proceeding could result in irreversible brain damage (yes, that may have occurred already...). So I ended up getting whooping cough which was far from pleasant but it was hardly widespread among those who had the full vaccination...

 

[The Barbarian]

Wakefield, BTW, was being paid for his report by lawyers planning to launch lawsuits against vaccine makers, although he hid this fact from the journals to which he submitted his "research."

 

[This Charming Manc]

The question is not are vaccines good, but does the state have the power to ensure that you must do something good for your and your children?

this second point i'm unsure on, hm gut instinct is to say NO, but then again the state forces us to educate our children, and sets minimum standards for there care.

If you want your kid to get measles, knock yourself out.

 

[elohiym]

Do you imagine there were tetanus and hepatitis A and B epidemics?

yes

Do you have any evidence? What you provided about tetanus doesn't prove it is an epidemic or contagious or something school children should be mandated to receive. You provided nothing to support your claim about hepatitis A or B.

we don't think of tetanus as the deadly scourge that it can be because it's so well controlled in the US

with vaccinations

People acquire natural immunity to tetanus through ingestion of Clostridium tetani. Several studies have shown this to be true:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1092755
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6114281
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3980089
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6680401

Based on those studies alone, your claim appears totally bogus.

why should children be protected from deadly diseases? :freak:

Why should they have seatbelts on a school bus, but don't?

A tetanus vaccine does not confer immunity to infection. The vaccine is a form of the toxin produced by Clostridium tetani. There has been severe tetanus in immunized patients with high anti-tetanus titers. Furthermore, there is the little known side of effect of tetanus boosters causing T cell counts to fall to below normal levels with the greatest decrease up to two weeks after vaccination, falling to levels of active AIDS patients in some cases. See Abnormal T-lymphocyte subpopulations in healthy subjects after tetanus booster immunization.

 

[elohiym]

How much is this corroborated do you know?

Do you mean the claim of the scientists at the Center For Infectious Disease Dynamics that "these data suggest that the vaccine may be contributing to the observed rise in whooping cough incidence over the last decade by promoting B. parapertussis infection?" What facts would you like to see corroborated?

I had an adverse reaction as a child to the whooping cough vaccination (1 of 3 injections) where after the first our doctor informed my parents that proceeding could result in irreversible brain damage (yes, that may have occurred already...).

Sorry to hear that, friend.

I don't know what specific vaccine you received, so it's hard for me to comment. Was it DTP or DTaP? Do you know the ingredients? It may have had aluminum phosphate or aluminum hydroxide adjuvant, which has been shown in studies to cause motor neuron death in mice. You can read those studies, if you like:

Aluminum hydroxide injections lead to motor deficits and motor neuron degeneration.

Aluminum adjuvant linked to Gulf War illness induces motor neuron death in mice.

So I ended up getting whooping cough which was far from pleasant but it was hardly widespread among those who had the full vaccination...

I don't think we can know for sure. The infection can be asymptomatic or manifest with fewer symptoms.

 

[elohiym]

If you want your kid to get measles, knock yourself out.

Not wanting to risk your child becoming brain damaged =/= wanting your child to get measles.

 

[elohiym]

Wakefield, BTW, was being paid for his report by lawyers planning to launch lawsuits against vaccine makers, although he hid this fact from the journals to which he submitted his "research."

Was his research flawed? If it was, how exactly was it flawed?

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

Was his research flawed? If it was, how exactly was it flawed?

Firstly, The study examined only 12 children with autism, this sample size is FAR too small to draw such large conclusions.

Secondly, there was a mismatch between the clinical papers that Wakefield cited in his paper, and the records of those clinical trials.

Not to mention the ethical violations of his work, his findings were never replicated despite numerous attempts.

 

[elohiym]

The question is not are vaccines good, but does the state have the power to ensure that you must do something good for your and your children?

... And can a state where religious freedom is guaranteed deny that freedom to ensure that one gets vaccinated?

It seems the main argument has been it needs to be done for public health safety reasons; but children interact with the general public daily, not just other school children, so the public safety argument is irrational unless one is arguing that immunizations be mandated for all citizens.

 

[elohiym]

Firstly, The study examined only 12 children with autism, this sample size is FAR too small to draw such large conclusions.

Secondly, there was a mismatch between the clinical papers that Wakefield cited in his paper, and the records of those clinical trials.

Not to mention the ethical violations of his work, his findings were never replicated despite numerous attempts.

This is from an article dated 2006:

New American research shows that there could be a link between the controversial MMR triple vaccine and autism and bowel disease in children.

The study appears to confirm the findings of British doctor Andrew Wakefield, who caused a storm in 1998 by suggesting a possible link.

Now a team from the Wake Forest University School of Medicine in North Carolina are examining 275 children with regressive autism and bowel disease - and of the 82 tested so far, 70 prove positive for the measles virus.

Last night the team's leader, Dr Stephen Walker, said: 'Of the handful of results we have in so far, all are vaccine strain and none are wild measles.

'This research proves that in the gastrointestinal tract of a number of children who have been diagnosed with regressive autism, there is evidence of measles virus.

'What it means is that the study done earlier by Dr Wakefield and published in 1998 is correct. That study didn’t draw any conclusions about specifically what it means to find measles virus in the gut, but the implication is it may be coming from the MMR vaccine. If that’s the case, and this live virus is residing in the gastrointestinal tract of some children, and then they have GI inflammation and other problems, it may be related to the MMR.'

.....

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-388051​

What facts do you dispute in that article?

Here is a list of 28 studies that support Wakefield's findings:

1. The Journal of Pediatrics November 1999; 135(5):559-63
2. The Journal of Pediatrics 2000; 138(3): 366-372
3. Journal of Clinical Immunology November 2003; 23(6): 504-517
4. Journal of Neuroimmunology 2005
5. Brain, Behavior and Immunity 1993; 7: 97-103
6. Pediatric Neurology 2003; 28(4): 1-3
7. Neuropsychobiology 2005; 51:77-85
8. The Journal of Pediatrics May 2005;146(5):605-10
9. Autism Insights 2009; 1: 1-11
10. Canadian Journal of Gastroenterology February 2009; 23(2): 95-98
11. Annals of Clinical Psychiatry 2009:21(3): 148-161
12. Journal of Child Neurology June 29, 2009; 000:1-6
13. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders March 2009;39(3):405-13
14. Medical Hypotheses August 1998;51:133-144.
15. Journal of Child Neurology July 2000; ;15(7):429-35
16. Lancet. 1972;2:883–884.
17. Journal of Autism and Childhood Schizophrenia January-March 1971;1:48-62
18. Journal of Pediatrics March 2001;138:366-372.
19. Molecular Psychiatry 2002;7:375-382.
20. American Journal of Gastroenterolgy April 2004;598-605.
21. Journal of Clinical Immunology November 2003;23:504-517.
22. Neuroimmunology April 2006;173(1-2):126-34.
23. Prog. Neuropsychopharmacol Biol. Psychiatry December 30 2006;30:1472-1477.
24. Clinical Infectious Diseases September 1 2002;35(Suppl 1):S6-S16
25. Applied and Environmental Microbiology, 2004;70(11):6459-6465
26. Journal of Medical Microbiology October 2005;54:987-991
27. Archivos venezolanos de puericultura y pediatría 2006; Vol 69 (1): 19-25.
28. Gastroenterology. 2005:128 (Suppl 2);Abstract-303

 

[Arthur Brain]

Do you mean the claim of the scientists at the Center For Infectious Disease Dynamics that "these data suggest that the vaccine may be contributing to the observed rise in whooping cough incidence over the last decade by promoting B. parapertussis infection?" What facts would you like to see corroborated?

I'd like to see multiple sources endorsing and corroborating the same findings before feeling comfortable to comment on this.

Sorry to hear that, friend.

Thanks. It's not called 'whooping cough' for a laugh as despite it being decades ago I can still recall the late night/early morning hours where I frightened my parents half to death along with myself due to 'impromptu' coughing fits and the "wheeze" that went with it...

I don't know what specific vaccine you received, so it's hard for me to comment. Was it DTP or DTaP? Do you know the ingredients? It may have had aluminum phosphate or aluminum hydroxide adjuvant, which has been shown in studies to cause motor neuron death in mice. You can read those studies, if you like:

Aluminum hydroxide injections lead to motor deficits and motor neuron degeneration.

Aluminum adjuvant linked to Gulf War illness induces motor neuron death in mice.

I have no idea myself. All I know is that I contracted the bloody thing and could have "coughed" to death. I don't decry my parent's decision to withhold the rest of the inoculation procedure but mine was a rare event and barely anyone else among my 'peers' suffered the same after the exact same vaccination.

I don't think we can know for sure. The infection can be asymptomatic or manifest with fewer symptoms.

Perhaps, but the most logical course of action is to go with vaccinations IMO until or if there's bonafide evidence to the contrary.