BRXII Battle talk

[PKevman]

Indeed.......

Qualified to an extent yes, but not infallible as it turns out, in the KJV especially - in my experience its regarded as the most inaccurate translation of the Bible in existence!

Are the people at Tentmaker infallible?

 

[PKevman]

No, of course they dont, hopping is not the same as jumping at all - the same as aion is not the same as aidios

this is ridiculous.

I used a different word to convey the same concept in all 4 sentences Red. You are just being thick now.

 

[PKevman]

No, of course they dont, hopping is not the same as jumping at all - the same as aion is not the same as aidios

I jumped over the rock.

I leaped over the rock.

I hurdled the rock.

I hopped over the rock.

I leaped over the rock.

I elevated over the rock.

Do all of these sentences mean the same thing? Can two words have the same meaning?

 

[red77]

Paul was an Apostle. That was a unique role and title. God doesn't appear to everyone that way. The same as the prophets in the Old Testament. God chose them for specific roles. Were all of the prophets completely obedient to God? Or did they have a choice?

not as Saul he wasnt, it took a direct intercession from God to bring about Saul's conversion to Paul, Saul's free will in the matter was negated to a large extent at least, and free will has been at the root of your argument against universal salvation for some time.........aka your 'psycho chef' analogy,
Its the fact that universal salvation doesnt dictate that God forces people to be with him against their own free will but rather that once they know the truth would willingly do so....
Without the road to damascus do you think that Saul would have found God? :think:

 

[red77]

Are the people at Tentmaker infallible?

Nope, nobody is infallible - including me and you.....

 

[red77]

this is ridiculous.

I used a different word to convey the same concept in all 4 sentences Red. You are just being thick now.

eternity is more than a concept - its a definite term, you cant have "nearly eternity" for example because that would not make sense,
and again - i ask you why it is that with a word that in its primary definition denotes eternal is used so sparingly.....is it not "logical" to presume there was good reason for such?

 

[PKevman]

Nope, nobody is infallible - including me and you.....

There see we CAN in fact find common ground............

So isn't it possible that the people at Tentmaker AND Universalists in general have it all wrong? Isn't it possible Red?

 

[PKevman]

eternity is more than a concept - its a definite term, you cant have "nearly eternity" for example because that would not make sense,
and again - i ask you why it is that with a word that in its primary definition denotes eternal is used so sparingly.....is it not "logical" to presume there was good reason for such?

You have been answered very clearly. You refuse to see it.

 

[red77]

There see we CAN in fact find common ground............

So isn't it possible that the people at Tentmaker AND Universalists in general have it all wrong? Isn't it possible Red?

It cuts both ways pastor, is it not possible that you and the other ET'ers have it wrong? Is that possible pastor?
The difference here is that I fully believe that God can accomplish what he wills or desires - you dont, your very doctrine dictates that God doesnt manage it - my belief starts out with the ultimate positive outcome - yours starts out with the ultimate negative outcome, which one on a logical level makes more sense?

 

[red77]

You have been answered very clearly. You refuse to see it.

You have not answered very clearly at all! Logic: if there is a word which is irrefutably translated as eternal then one would expect that word to be used in each instance where the intent was to denote eternity. This is the Bible and if you believe it to be inerrant then there would be no doubt so Aidios would have been used each and every time - not just twice!
aion is the sticking point for you because it just does not say what you want it to for your doctrine to stick together....
Seriously pastor - are you absolutely sure within yourself that God cannot accomplish his own will? Why would I believe you - or anyone else who would preach this?

 

[red77]

I have answered you. It is you Red who won't answer people's questions directly. Aimiel, Nineveh, and Stipe would all I am sure concur.

I have answered you directly in this thread for the past 45 minutes or more, this is pretty weak pastor and I'd expect better, I made a conscious effort with Stipe after our previous differences to address all his questions - he may not have liked the answers but I know that I tried my best to answer as well as I could, this is just a strawman and its not impressive.....why not just keep to the topic at hand?

 

[Ecumenicist]

Buried from Post 903:

1. PK, where does this destruction come from? Where does it eminate from? What
is the source of this destruction?

2. Also a follow up, if evil is ended, "destructed," annihilated, is it not gone for eternity?

I'm not so hung up on the "eternity" debate because evil which is destroyed in God's
purifying Fire, the Sword of Fire Guarding the Kingdom, the Lake of Fire, is in fact
annihilated for all eternity.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I believe in an open future NIN...I don't think we end up in a Calvinistic universe in the end.

Universalism is the ultimate form of Calvinism. IT is nicer because it has a happy ending but its still Calvinism. You have no choice.

 

[CabinetMaker]

As far as your question, I don't believe people respond because of Hell in the first place...it is the goodness of God that brings repentance. I think more people would respond to the Gospel if that is shown to be true that God really has everyones salvation in view.

Lets take this further.

If what you say is true...then you have close friends, relatives, acquaintences and family that are in torment RIGHT NOW...and there is nothing you can do, and nothing you can say to change that.

Saddly, that is true. There may be friends and family that end up in eternal torment. Its sad to think about but it is a big probability. IT is one I must face. I would like to believe in the feel-good theology of universalism but I can't because it just doesn't square with the Bible.

That reminds me of another quote:

One of the things that most pains and torments these Japanese is that we teach them that the prison of hell is irrevocably shut. For they grieve over the fate of their departed children, of their parents and relatives; and they often show their grief by their tears. So they ask us if there is any hope….and I am obliged to answer that there is absolutely none. The grief at this affects and torments them wonderfully; they almost pine away with sorrow….I can hardly restrain my tears sometimes at seeing many so dear to my heart suffer such intense pain about a thing which is already done with and can never be undone.-- St. Francis Xavier, a Roman Catholic missionary to Japan, 1552​

Now...if you are wrong the implications are staggering. You are attributing to God something He never set His mind to do. I've provided the reasons why I think that is the case that this is what has in fact happened.

I can see no reason at all except perhaps for some kind of correctional and remedial purpose.

That is my answer.

Okay, that is your answer. Ithink you need to spend more time with it. Jesus died that all your sins would be forgiven. He was/is successfull, your sins are forgiven. What is it then that still requires the lake of fire for your correctional and remedial purposes?

 

[Nineveh]

Everyone is without excuse, Nin. That was Paul's point.

I know that. But it seems you don't. "Yeah...I guess everyone is just stupid...I mean it's so obvious to everyone in the world, isn't it?" It's your argument people will get a second chance once they really really know what's going on. Paul says there is no excuse now.

The last enemy that is to be overthrown is Death...

Wow...so not only does forever only mean forever if it's in contexts that pass your approval, but now 21 comes before 20. Amazing!

PK's responses were to make aion mean eternal wherever he thinks it should mean eternal.

Right now, you have more fingers pointing pack at you than the one you are pointing at PK.

None of those things remain, Nin.

Now "all" means "some".

I never said those who refuse Christ are saved.

Then what are they? In heaven unsaved?

The people who say it means eternal...

I'm not sure what part of, "I ain't goin' down that road with you." you don't understand.

 

[PKevman]

Logic: if there is a word which is irrefutably translated as eternal then one would expect that word to be used in each instance where the intent was to denote eternity.

"If there is a word which is irrefutably translated as eternal"

They weren't writing with the mindset that people would come along and try to distort what had been said. They were writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I say God worked out His will (a favorite saying of yours) and inspired His Word, the Bible and also oversaw its transmission.

This is the Bible and if you believe it to be inerrant then there would be no doubt so Aidios would have been used each and every time - not just twice!

"If I believe it to be inerrant". I think you show your hatred and disdain for God's Word by that statement alone.

aion is the sticking point for you because it just does not say what you want it to for your doctrine to stick together....

It really isn't a "sticking point" for me at all. It is a sticking point for you. You still have not shown why anyone should accept yours and Universalisms translations over that of all of the great Greek scholars who translate those words to be eternal. Now quite frankly I am sick to death of saying the same things over and over, so unless you have something new to say on this subject just drop it. Thank you.

Seriously pastor - are you absolutely sure within yourself that God cannot accomplish his own will? Why would I believe you - or anyone else who would preach this?

God has accomplished His will Red. And His will is being accomplished. I have NOT said that God cannot accomplish His will. You set up ridiculous straw men!

Good day.

 

[PKevman]

It doesn't mean eternal anywhere. I said the same thing...but He insisted it does mean eternal somewhere...it doesn't.

Stephen, again I must point out that you have changed your position from what you said in the Battle Royale. You have accused me of not paying attention to your arguments in the BR, when in fact I did pay attention enough to know that this doesn't jive with what you have previously said. Do you not see how inconsistent this is?

 

[PKevman]

Buried from Post 903:

1. PK, where does this destruction come from? Where does it eminate from? What
is the source of this destruction?

2. Also a follow up, if evil is ended, "destructed," annihilated, is it not gone for eternity?

I'm not so hung up on the "eternity" debate because evil which is destroyed in God's
purifying Fire, the Sword of Fire Guarding the Kingdom, the Lake of Fire, is in fact
annihilated for all eternity.

Dave Miller I already told you that you cannot possibly prove this doctrine to me that God is the Lake of Fire. So please don't try. There is no amount of Scripture-twisting that you can do to justify this doctrine. You are just trolling this thread.

 

[PKevman]

Ok here is a clue: the title of this thread:

BRXII Battle Talk

How about we discuss some things from the Battle Royale. How come our Universalist friends cannot answer simple direct questions with simple direct answers? It is because their positions are based upon lies, and lies beget more lies. Universalism is a house built on sand, that the clear light of God's Word exposes to be the false teaching that it is.

There are many questions that Universalism cannot answer and will not answer. Like this one:

Will Satan and the fallen angels be in Heaven for all eternity? If so, by WHAT means will they get there? Please cite the Scripture verse that refutes them being in the Lake of Fire forever and ever. Please show where Salvation that is found in the God man, Jesus Christ, is also open to fallen angels and Satan. How could Christ the God-Man pay a penalty for the sins of angels?

 

[PKevman]

Things that are irrefutable Biblical facts and were shown to be so in this debate:

1.Believers will live for all eternity in Heaven.
2. Heaven and the Lake of Fire are both eternal destinations.
3. Unbelievers will spend all eternity in the Lake of Fire.
4. There is not one verse in the Bible that clearly shows that they get out of the Lake of Fire
5. God loves all men and sent His Son, Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for their sins on the cross of Calvary.
6. Not everyone will accept the message. To God all those who DO accept the message were worth the sacrifice of His Son!
7. A person who is not born again cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
8. Jesus said the fire in the Lake of Fire is never quenched. This is a fact.
9. There is not one verse in the Bible that shows that Jesus was wrong and the fire is quenched.
10. There is no hope of redemption for fallen angels and Satan. The Bible does not contain one verse that supports such a wild claim. The Bible clearly says that Christ was sacrificed for men and not for angels.
11. There is no Scriptural evidence of angels having their sins paid for, repenting of their sins, or spending eternity in Heaven after a period of “ages” as Universalism claims.
12. There is no Scriptural evidence of people being allowed to repent of their sins after death. The Bible makes it clear that God’s judgments are just as eternal as He is.
13. There is no Scriptural evidence that people are saved after they die.
14. Those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are never in Scripture shown to have their names written BACK into the Book of Life at any point!
15. The Bible says that those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire. There is not one single verse that shows they ever get out.
16. He who believes in Jesus Christ has everlasting life. He who does not believe is condemned.
17. Without repentance, we cannot have our sins blotted out!