BRXII Battle talk

[Nineveh]

Where does it say its forced? please explain,

...anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Even though their knee was bent and their tongue did confess. Why?

what about the ones who obviously believe in Christ but are told to depart?

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

So what do you want to know about those who practice lawlessness?

I guess they believed the wrong doctrine?

I hope you take a moment and realize these verses aren't some "field within a field". They are simple to understasnd and often answer your questions. It's just sad that you only need one or two verses though. Please read the ones around your cherished few.

God knows each persons heart and why they do and think what they do, noone else does

You are absolutely correct. That's most likely the reason he created hell. Because He knew lucifer's heart and he knows the hearts of men who chose to follow satan aka "the lawless".

That particular parable in question taught a lesson in how to treat others, the rich man treat his brother with no compassion or charity, now unless a man can speak while he's on fire then it isnt literal, it doesnt negate people preaching the word

I'm not shocked you missed another forest for the trees.

Oh come on, has anyone ever said that people will not receive justice?

Yes! Those who argue people get of hell someday have totally disregarded God's Just and Righteous Judgements.

And you havent answered

Oh would you quit that. I wish I had a dime for everytime you say it.

why dont you just address Dave's points instead?

Alrighty.

Dave, I really wish you would either just read the Bible and come to know the God spoken of in it, or change your "religious affiliation" to something closer to the things you teach.

 

[PKevman]

And you havent answered

Oh would you quit that. I wish I had a dime for everytime you say it.

It does get old doesn't it Nin? I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Nineveh]

Speaking of Paul,

God struck him blind to get his attention, to introduce him to Christ, in effect to "save" him.

Evidence that God has the power to turn even the hardest heart of stone into a heart of
flesh. This is why I continue to be hopeful for even this "hardened" TOL crowd...

Hardened? Yeah, there are some hardened folks here at TOL.

I know one guy who was so angry he couldn't get a total stranger to do what he wanted ... he went home and took it out on his wife! And if that isn't hard hearted enough, he also admits to mocking people for his own personal enjoyment! And what's more, he encourages folks to misplace anger on God by telling them they can forgive Him and that God Himself sins! And to top it off, he encourages people to stay in their unrepentant sins! And all of these things he does in the Name of our Savior Jesus Christ! Pretty hard hearted guy, huh?

 

[PKevman]

A typical conversation with Red:

Red: The Bible says all will be saved and that God wills all to be saved. Do you believe that God can accomplish His will?

Anyone: No Red those verses are being taken out of context (opens Bible and shows Red how those verses don't mean what Red says they mean)

Red: You haven't answered. I believe God will be all in all and that God desires all men to be saved. Do you honestly think that it is right that God would torture helpless people endlessly for all eternity with no real purpose other than to inflict pain on them?

Anyone: Red, God has given us His Word, the Bible, and He describes very clearly what happens to unbelievers who die in their sins without repenting and trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Red: You have not answered my question I believe God will be all in all and that God desires all men to be saved. Do you honestly think that it is right that God would torture helpless people endlessly for all eternity with no real purpose other than to inflict pain on them?

Anyone: Red I have answered your question, you just didn't like the answer. Universalism is false teaching.

Red: I believe God can accomplish His will, why don't you?

Anyone: Red I never said God couldn't accomplish His will. You have misunderstood what the Scriptures say. God wills that those who do not repent of their sins will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire, a real place of endless suffering. God states this explicitly in His Word. The Son of God, Jesus states it explicitly in His own words.

Red: Those translations are wrong. Your whole argument depends upon mistranslations of Aion. I believe God will be all in all and that God desires all men to be saved. Do you honestly think that it is right that God would torture helpless people endlessly for all eternity with no real purpose other than to inflict pain on them?

Red:I believe God will be all in all and that God desires all men to be saved. Do you honestly think that it is right that God would torture helpless people endlessly for all eternity with no real purpose other than to inflict pain on them?

Red:I believe God will be all in all and that God desires all men to be saved. Do you honestly think that it is right that God would torture helpless people endlessly for all eternity with no real purpose other than to inflict pain on them?

Red: You aren't answering the questions I am asking you...

It's because at this point the person is tired of repeating themselves and answering the same questions over and over and then hearing they aren't answering. Red with all due respect, you really should consider that your debating style is just not doing your theology very much justice.......

 

[Nineveh]

PK, I think you just summed up the last 40 pages of this thread.

If this question were honestly answered: Why do you believe there is a second chance after judgement is carried out?, perhaps the real root to clinging to this doctrine would be exposed.

 

[PKevman]

PK, I think you just summed up the last 40 pages of this thread.

If this question were honestly answered: Why do you believe there is a second chance after judgement is carried out?, perhaps the real root to clinging to this doctrine would be exposed.

And to be fair to Red, it is the positions that he holds that has him so befuddled. Universalism cannot be defended Biblically with any intellectual honesty. It's just sad that so many are trapped in its mazes of confusing doctrines.

 

[Evee]

I have leaned toward universal salvation, I now say God will salvage what is salvageable.
I really to this day am not sure what hell is but I do believe some may not want to be with God.
What about annihaliation?
I do believe if anyone ends up in hell it is where they want to be.
I am still studing this.
Two steps forward and three steps back...blah blah blah. :dunce:

 

[Ecumenicist]

Hardened? Yeah, there are some hardened folks here at TOL.

I know one guy who was so angry he couldn't get a total stranger to do what he wanted ... he went home and took it out on his wife! And if that isn't hard hearted enough, he also admits to mocking people for his own personal enjoyment! And what's more, he encourages folks to misplace anger on God by telling them they can forgive Him and that God Himself sins! And to top it off, he encourages people to stay in their unrepentant sins! And all of these things he does in the Name of our Savior Jesus Christ! Pretty hard hearted guy, huh?

Thanksgiving before last I suffered anguish at our inability to help a homeless
youth who showed up behind our church. He was about the same age as one of
my children. I shared this anguish with my wife, and with my friends here at TOL.
She understood, I'm greatful for her love.

I'm continually learning to trust in God's Grace, especially in the lives of those who
would reject God's Grace.

Your a witness to the twistedness that accompanies belief in a vengeful god who
would torture souls for all eternity. You are ever in my prayers, Nin.

 

[Evee]

Thanksgiving before last I suffered anguish at our inability to help a homeless
youth who showed up behind our church. He was about the same age as one of
my children. I shared this anguish with my wife, and with my friends here at TOL.
She understood, I'm greatful for her love.

I'm continually learning to trust in God's Grace, especially in the lives of those who
would reject God's Grace.

Your a witness to the twistedness that accompanies belief in a vengeful god who
would torture souls for all eternity. You are ever in my prayers, Nin.

I trust that God is loving, whatever he does will be better than I could even imagine.

 

[PKevman]

I have leaned toward universal salvation, I now say God will salvage what is salvageable.
I really to this day am not sure what hell is but I do believe some may not want to be with God.
What about annihaliation?
I do believe if anyone ends up in hell it is where they want to be.
I am still studing this.
Two steps forward and three steps back...blah blah blah. :dunce:

Keep studying Evee. It is great to see someone willing to truly examine these doctrines. When compared with Scriptures, they are always shown to be false. God the Holy Spirit leads us and guides us into truth, and if He is in our lives, He will show us when we're in error. Keep studying His Word the Bible! :up:

 

[Ecumenicist]

Things that are irrefutable Biblical facts and were shown to be so in this debate:

Irrefutable, perhaps, but the irrefutable Biblicalal fact that GOD IS LOVE demands
interpretation which covers all facts, not just the ones you or I are comfortable with.

1.Believers will live for all eternity in Heaven.

OK, consistant with God BEING Love.

2. Heaven and the Lake of Fire are both eternal destinations.

Both the same destination. Hell appears as a flaming sword, a lake of fire, to those
who are not open to God's Grace.

3. Unbelievers will spend all eternity in the Lake of Fire.

Unbelievers will enter the lake of fire and be purged, cleansed, healed, and the
scales that prevent them from recognizing God's Grace will fall from their eyes.
And they will spend an eternity healed, cleansed, made whole, in God's presence.

4. There is not one verse in the Bible that clearly shows that they get out of the Lake of Fire

Agreed, they never emerge. Their suffering is turned into joy, and they spend an
eternity with God in the restoration of all things.

5. God loves all men and sent His Son, Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for their sins on the cross of Calvary.

Amen

6. Not everyone will accept the message. To God all those who DO accept the message were worth the sacrifice of His Son!

No one is worthy, no not one. Ignore scripture, go ahead. It is by the faith OF Christ
we are healed, not by our own worthiness. Many will say "Lord, Lord, I am worthy, I
have done great things in your name," but He will say "I never knew you..." No one is
worthy.

7. A person who is not born again cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

Agreed, God's healing Grace is required for the restoration of all things.

8. Jesus said the fire in the Lake of Fire is never quenched. This is a fact.

God's Grace appears as a burning fire to those who do not accept it. God's
Grace is eternal.

9. There is not one verse in the Bible that shows that Jesus was wrong and the fire is quenched.

I hope its never quenched. One man's Healing Grace is another's consuming fire.

10. There is no hope of redemption for fallen angels and Satan. The Bible does not contain one verse that supports such a wild claim. The Bible clearly says that Christ was sacrificed for men and not for angels.

If there is no good whatsover in those demons, they will be annihilated in God's
consuming fire. But that's up to God, not you nor I.

11. There is no Scriptural evidence of angels having their sins paid for, repenting of their sins, or spending eternity in Heaven after a period of “ages” as Universalism claims.

We gotta leave some things to God. I'll let God judge the angels. I trust in Christ's
Grace for all Creation. For all things are restored in Him.

12. There is no Scriptural evidence of people being allowed to repent of their sins after death. The Bible makes it clear that God’s judgments are just as eternal as He is.

But there is scriptural evidence of people who are hardened against God Grace having
their eyes opened. And the people who were in great darkness saw the light,
though they did not recognize it.

13. There is no Scriptural evidence that people are saved after they die.

There is scriptural evidence that the dead are judged, and there is scriptural evidence that
God's Judgement is God's Healing Grace and Love made manifest.

14. Those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are never in Scripture shown to have their names written BACK into the Book of Life at any point!

Psalm 58:8 Thou tellest my wanderings: put thou my tears into thy bottle: are they not in thy book?

The good news is this: Christ died for us when we were yet sinners. Before our names
were written in the book.

15. The Bible says that those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire. There is not one single verse that shows they ever get out.

Agreed. The lake of fire is God's consuming, purging, purifying Grace. There is no
escape from this, only healing and redemption.

16. He who believes in Jesus Christ has everlasting life. He who does not believe is condemned.

... to God's rightehous judgement, which brings healing and redemption, restoration
of all things through Jesus Christ.

17. Without repentance, we cannot have our sins blotted out!

[/QUOTE]
Without Christ's Atoning Blood, there is no repentence. No one is worthy. No not
one.

 

[Nineveh]

Thanksgiving before last I suffered anguish at our inability to help a homeless
youth who showed up behind our church. He was about the same age as one of
my children. I shared this anguish with my wife, and with my friends here at TOL.
She understood, I'm greatful for her love.

I'm continually learning to trust in God's Grace, especially in the lives of those who
would reject God's Grace.

Your a witness to the twistedness that accompanies belief in a vengeful god who
would torture souls for all eternity. You are ever in my prayers, Nin.

Making up excuses for your actions and shifting the blame doesn't soften your heart any dave.

 

[Nineveh]

I have leaned toward universal salvation, I now say God will salvage what is salvageable.
I really to this day am not sure what hell is but I do believe some may not want to be with God.
What about annihaliation?
I do believe if anyone ends up in hell it is where they want to be.
I am still studing this.
Two steps forward and three steps back...blah blah blah. :dunce:

Keep reading and praying Evee, the Spirit will guide you in Truth

 

[Kimberlyann]

Keep reading and praying Evee, the Spirit will guide you in Truth

That's good advice Evee.

Act 17:10 The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily {to see} whether these things were so.

Paul actually encourages us not to take anyone's word for anything, we should be like the Bereans and search the Scriptures to find out if what they say is true. Let the one who promised to lead you into all truth be your guide.

 

[logos_x]

Universalism is the ultimate form of Calvinism. IT is nicer because it has a happy ending but its still Calvinism. You have no choice.

It is neither Calvinistic nor Arminian.

Both believe in an eternal hell...and this is why there are differences in their theology. Aminianism sought to refute that God predestines many to an eternal hell by making the arrival in an eternal Hell a matter of free will.

Universal salvation says God predestinated that all things will be made right by Christ...in Christ all things were created, through Christ all things are upheald, and all things return to Christ. That all things, including judgements, work together for for the good of those who diligently seek Him, and in the dispensation of the fullness of times all things will come together in Christ. This does not require a predetermination that is exhaustive...but Christ's active presence and our response.

But it doesn't matter does it. Minds are made up on this...so it is pointless to speak of it further.

Have a wonderful day!

 

[logos_x]

I trust that God is loving, whatever he does will be better than I could even imagine.

Amen! :thumb:

 

[PKevman]

Beware false teachers like Dave Miller!

Beware false teachers like Dave Miller!

Irrefutable, perhaps, but the irrefutable Biblicalal fact that GOD IS LOVE demands
interpretation which covers all facts, not just the ones you or I are comfortable with.

Is love all that God is? Yes God is love, but there are many other ways to describe God too. He is a jealous God for instance. He gets angry. He is a perfect, holy, and righteous God. He is a God who CANNOT allow sin into His presence.

Both the same destination. Hell appears as a flaming sword, a lake of fire, to those
who are not open to God's Grace.

I see so the broad and narrow ways BOTH lead to the same destination? Do you deny the words of Jesus when He said many will seek to enter and will not be allowed in?

Unbelievers will enter the lake of fire and be purged, cleansed, healed, and the
scales that prevent them from recognizing God's Grace will fall from their eyes.

They will? Can you point to the Bible verse that clearly shows this? No. It is not there. There is not one Bible verse that shows anyone in the Lake of Fire getting out. Not one. You can again twist Scripture all you like, you will still be wrong.

No one is worthy, no not one. Ignore scripture, go ahead. It is by the faith OF Christ
we are healed, not by our own worthiness. Many will say "Lord, Lord, I am worthy, I
have done great things in your name," but He will say "I never knew you..." No one is
worthy.

This is funny. Notice I didn't say anyone was worthy. None are worthy of the grace of God. I said anyone who repents is worth the sacrifice of God's Son to God. And this was in direct response to the idea that Universalism foists upon people that if all are not saved then Christ is somehow a failure.

Agreed, God's healing Grace is required for the restoration of all things.

The restoration is God ridding the universe of sin. Sinners will still be judged in the Lake of Fire for all eternity. They are shut out from Heaven and glory. The Lake of Fire is a real place. You are a false teacher.

If there is no good whatsover in those demons, they will be annihilated in God's
consuming fire. But that's up to God, not you nor I.

False teaching again. God declares in His Word what their destiny is. You are right it is up to Him and HE has pronounced their curse.

We gotta leave some things to God. I'll let God judge the angels.

Actually the Bible teaches that Christians will have a place in judging the angels. Did you not know that? And God has already pronounced the judgment of the fallen angels. If you didn't deny the Bible you wouldn't have a problem with that.

 

[Kimberlyann]

But it doesn't matter does it. Minds are made up on this...so it is pointless to speak of it further.

I totally agree. :thumb: It's pointless and a waste of energy.

 

[Stripe]

I have answered you. It is you Red who won't answer people's questions directly. Aimiel, Nineveh, and Stipe would all I am sure concur.

I concur. Do the word count test. Ask everyone a simple questions and see how wordy the response is. The more words - the less convincing. Red is about as convincing as a mosquito net made from chicken wire.

 

[logos_x]

Stephen, again I must point out that you have changed your position from what you said in the Battle Royale. You have accused me of not paying attention to your arguments in the BR, when in fact I did pay attention enough to know that this doesn't jive with what you have previously said. Do you not see how inconsistent this is?

In the Battle Royale I showed that aion and eon and age are the same words and mean the same thing when comparing the English to the Greek. These words in both the greek and the english do not mean eternal on their own. In order to be consistant, aion should be translated as age or eon whenever it is used because this would line up with the hebrew words employed as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Aion, eon and age denote an undetermined TIME.

If you think I said anything other than that I don't know how I could've said it any differently so that it wouldn't appear inconsistant.

Now...that you don't accept this is fine. I don't accept your explanation either. So...there we are.

Now...I'm done.



Have a wonderful day!