Bob's pre-fall baby claims

[Turbo]

I'd actually like to know where the Bible states that any babies were born before the Fall.

It doesn't. Did somebody say that it did?

 

[Turbo]

So pain existed. How exactly was the pain increased for childbearing? How does that work?

Did you not read the thread up to this point or what?

 

[Turbo]

Perhaps before the fall, the human nervous system was completely devoid of pain receptors. And the second Eve touched the Magic Mango, her and her husband's nervous systems spontaneously remapped and reconfigured.

Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute?

 

[Turbo]

You all seem really hung up on the "three months" thing (partly due to fool's filtered reporting). It's not like Bob was being dogmatic; that was just thrown out as a speculative example. He also mentioned "six months" as a possibility, so Bob wasn't being terribly specific.

Bob's point was that the Bible reports that God did not increase the pain women would experience in childbirth because God is a sadist; He had a merciful purpose. God told Eve, "In pain you shall bring forth children," immediately after He told her, "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception." These statements are in verse and are likely an example of parallelism, a form of poetry common in Hebrew in which different lines express similar or repetitive ideas using different words.

God "multiplied" woman's "conception" as a result of the Fall. Does that mean God cursed her by making her conceive more children? No, because conceiving children is a blessing and God commanded Adam and Eve to "be fruitful and multiply" even before they fell.

No, this is an example of a figure of speech in which the beginning of something is used to represent the whole thing. "Conception" represents "gestation."

Jesus used a similar figure of speech when He spoke of "the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms" (Luke 24:44); the Psalms is the first book of the Writings.

Also, sometimes "the Law" is used to represent the entire Old Testament (the Law, the Prophets and the Writings) because the Law is the first of the three sections.

And we occasionally use this figure of speech in our culture, such as when we refer to a bestselling title when we really mean bestselling book.

 

[fool]

You all seem really hung up on the "three months" thing (partly due to fool's filtered reporting). It's not like Bob was being dogmatic; that was just thrown out as a speculative example. He also mentioned "six months" as a possibility, so Bob wasn't being terribly specific.

Bob's point was that the Bible reports that God did not increase the pain women would experience in childbirth because God is a sadist; He had a merciful purpose. God told Eve, "In pain you shall bring forth children," immediately after He told her, "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception." These statements are in verse and are likely an example of parallelism, a form of poetry common in Hebrew in which different lines express similar or repetitive ideas using different words.

God "multiplied" woman's "conception" as a result of the Fall. Does that mean God cursed her by making her conceive more children? No, because conceiving children is a blessing and God commanded Adam and Eve to "be fruitful and multiply" even before they fell.

No, this is an example of a figure of speech in which the beginning of something is used to represent the whole thing. "Conception" represents "gestation."

Jesus used a similar figure of speech when He spoke of "the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms" (Luke 24:44); the Psalms is the first book of the Writings.

Also, sometimes "the Law" is used to represent the entire Old Testament (the Law, the Prophets and the Writings) because the Law is the first of the three sections.

And we occasionally use this figure of speech in our culture, such as when we refer to a bestselling title when we really mean bestselling book.

Wow, You must get good mileage cause you are all over the map.

 

[Lighthouse]

By three months the lung tissue has differentiated and begun to develop, but they aren't complete. By three months most tissues have differentiated, but they aren't nearly done developing and thus aren't ready to function. A baby born at three months absolutely would not survive without medical intervention (and likely even then, I think the record is somewhere around 4.5 gestation) no matter what the environment was like. Unless the environment can regulate the babies' sodium, potassium, calcium, blood pH, blood glucose, blood volume, cardiac output, liver function, respiratory function, etc. etc. the baby would die.

It just depends on the fetus. If you define viability as a 50% chance of survival (as it usually is), the minimum with intensive medical intervention is about 24 weeks. Without intervention the minimum is probably somewhere around 8 or 9 months--which is why this is the typical term (think in evolutionary context). A baby is considered premature if it's born before 37 weeks, and premature babies usually require some form of medical intervention. I haven't taken obstetrics yet, so what I know has been gathered from other courses which have mentioned it. I've taken embryology 1, but I still have embryo 2 and 3 to go. In other words, I could be wrong.

Did someone forget that before the Fall there was no death?

 

[Lighthouse]

It doesn't. Did somebody say that it did?

That was pretty much my point. Bob is speculating, and that's fine, if he acknowledges that it is specualtion. And he apparently did, so I have no problem with this. However, it was also kind of my point to say what some others have said, which is, "What's the point of discussing this?"

 

[Granite]

I donno, but it sure messed up our emotional response to life! Come to think of it, I'll bet Eve never had PMS....Oh well.

I think the whole thing is somewhat of a moot point, since there are no births recorded before the fall. I think Lighthouse pointed out a significant caveat to the argument.

Get yourself one of these http://www.trunkmonkey.com/content/view/65/51/ and you’ll never have to worry about pain in childbirth again...oh, but I digress. :chuckle:

Ah...a world without PMS!

I agree that it is moot, since based on the Genesis account it appears Cain was the first child conceived and born--thus making the possibility of painless child birth irrelevant.

 

[Johnny]

Did someone forget that before the Fall there was no death?

Even if you chopped your head off? That's a serious question, by the way.

 

[Turbo]

Wow, You must get good mileage cause you are all over the map.

The majority of my post was about how the phrase "I will greatly multiply... your conception" is an example of a figure of speech in which the beginning of something is used to represent the whole, and I provided examples of this figure for those who weren't familiar with it.

I also explained that the literary form of the passage indicates that this lengthened gestation is tied to the increased pain during birth.

And I briefly mentioned that you're selective reporting of what Bob said is leading people to miss Bob's point (that increased pain during birth is due to lengthened gestation, which would help babies survive post-Fall) and to instead focus on insignificant details (Bob mentioned "three months" as one hypothetical shortened gestation period).


If you were unable to recognize or comprehend any of those points, let me know and I might reiterate it. Or you could just continue to blow them off, as they distract from your agenda.

 

[Turbo]

Even if you chopped your head off? That's a serious question, by the way.

Chopping someone's head off (even one's own) would have resulted in death. But the Tree of Death provided man with a less difficult and bloody way out of their relationship with God.

If this topic interests you, you might enjoy Bob's album on The Fall.

 

[Turbo]

That was pretty much my point. Bob is speculating, and that's fine, if he acknowledges that it is specualtion. And he apparently did, so I have no problem with this. However, it was also kind of my point to say what some others have said, which is, "What's the point of discussing this?"

Because people who hate God like to falsely accuse Him of being sadistic in cursing womankind with painful childbirth. And even people who love God often have a hard time figuring out why (and how) God made giving birth more painful.

But the Bible does record God mentioning what caused the pain to increase, which offers a major clue as to why. So really we're only speculating to a degree about the details of it. (e.g. How much shorter would gestation have been had Eve not sinned?)

 

[Nathon Detroit]

If you were unable to recognize or comprehend any of those points, let me know and I might reiterate it. Or you could just continue to blow them off, as they distract from your agenda.

Bingo. :chuckle:

 

[fool]

The majority of my post was about how the phrase "I will greatly multiply... your conception" is an example of a figure of speech in which the beginning of something is used to represent the whole, and I provided examples of this figure for those who weren't familiar with it.

I also explained that the literary form of the passage indicates that this lengthened gestation is tied to the increased pain during birth.

And I briefly mentioned that you're selective reporting of what Bob said is leading people to miss Bob's point (that increased pain during birth is due to lengthened gestation, which would help babies survive post-Fall) and to instead focus on insignificant details (Bob mentioned "three months" as one hypothetical shortened gestation period).


If you were unable to recognize or comprehend any of those points, let me know and I might reiterate it. Or you could just continue to blow them off, as they distract from your agenda.

The link to the show is available to everyone and I recomend they listen, the gestation thing is around 27 minutes, the ground work gets laid before that, I say listen to the whole show there's lots more to talk about!
Seeing as how all Turbo has is acusing me of "selective reporting" and "agenda having" perhaps you all could tell me what You think he said.

 

[Lighthouse]

Even if you chopped your head off? That's a serious question, by the way.

:skeptic::duh:

 

[wholearmor]

He mentioned it as a rebuttal to the Guys claims that the human body dosen't look all that well engineered. The Dr. said an inteligent designer woul have the mechanics of birth better thought out and Bob says He did! Before the fall birth was easy and then he guesses at some times and weights, the three month ten oz. being the low end of the range.

I gotta' ask this, fool. Are you half asleep when you post or are you just lazy?

 

[wholearmor]

was he a guest? if he was, your summation of his intelligence might explain why he was invited.

was he a caller?

He was a guest.

 

[fool]

I gotta' ask this, fool. Are you half asleep when you post or are you just lazy?

I think I was pouring my kid some juice and talking to my wife and there was a question as to where the dog was when I whipped that together.

 

[wholearmor]

I think I was pouring my kid some juice and talking to my wife and there was a question as to where the dog was when I whipped that together.

I was just wondering because you sound like you're either half asleep or a lazy person to me when I hear you speak on Bob's show.

 

[fool]

I was just wondering because you sound like you're either half asleep or a lazy person to me when I hear you speak on Bob's show.

If it's worth saying, it's worth saying slowly.