Bob's pre-fall baby claims

[Granite]

er .. so you were asking that? ok .. well then .. back to the diagrams.

smaller babies cause less pain in childbirth than large babies. mum carried around two 8pound (eventually) babies for 9 months before giving birth to my younger brothers. im sure she would have found it a lot more convenient and less painful in a 'good' environment where the babies could be delivered naturally and safely after (say) 3 months...

This entire scenario is absurd and does not take into account proper fetal development.

 

[wholearmor]

So pain existed. How exactly was the pain increased for childbearing? How does that work?

Anything I or anyone else can come up with would be conjecture. Maybe they were both "bigger" before. :chuckle: I will say, however, that my wife had very little pain with both of our full-term children. They were normal size babies. Then again, she broke her tibia and fibula snow sledding one time and got up and tried to walk on the leg because she didn't know it was broken. High threshold for some forms of pain I guess.

 

[Caledvwlch]

In show # 90 http://kgov.com/bel/2006/20060505-BEL090-24k.mp3 Bob claims that before The Fall gestational periods would have been much shorter, perhaps as short as three months for humans with birth weights around 10 oz.
Can anyone fill me in on what would have been different enviormentaly and gestationaly that would allow 10 oz. human births to be the viable norm?

Perhaps before the fall, the human nervous system was completely devoid of pain receptors. And the second Eve touched the Magic Mango, her and her husband's nervous systems spontaneously remapped and reconfigured.

 

[fool]

You'd basically have to rewrite the book.

That's what I was thinking.
They don't have lungs at three months do they?
What would you say the minimum gestation would be for viablity? (assuming a perfect envioronment)

 

[allsmiles]

did Bob knock over another atheist in his mind again?

:chuckle:

good for you Bob :BRAVO: way to go :thumb:

 

[Caledvwlch]

That's what I was thinking.
They don't have lungs at three months do they?
What would you say the minimum gestation would be for viablity? (assuming a perfect envioronment)

This would be a lot simpler to explain if it was, I don't know... a myth.

 

[allsmiles]

:chuckle:

 

[kmoney]

Ok, maybe I'm wrong here but all we can do is simply speculate. The bible is essentially silent on the issue. There is one verse about child birth changes after the fall and I don't think much can be said from that. And also, does anyone think this topic has any significance? Because in my mind, who cares? I'm kinda not sure why Bob would even make such a claim. Am I missing something?

 

[Granite]

Anything I or anyone else can come up with would be conjecture. Maybe they were both "bigger" before. :chuckle: I will say, however, that my wife had very little pain with both of our full-term children. They were normal size babies. Then again, she broke her tibia and fibula snow sledding one time and got up and tried to walk on the leg because she didn't know it was broken. High threshold for some forms of pain I guess.

Explaining how the female body's nervous system was rather instantenously restructured strikes me as worthy of speculation. Come to think of it I never encountered an explanation for this...

 

[wholearmor]

Ok, maybe I'm wrong here but all we can do is simply speculate. The bible is essentially silent on the issue. There is one verse about child birth changes after the fall and I don't think much can be said from that. And also, does anyone think this topic has any significance? Because in my mind, who cares? I'm kinda not sure why Bob would even make such a claim. Am I missing something?

I'll have to listen to the show again. Did Bob state it as fact or as one possibility?

 

[2ephesians8]

Explaining how the female body's nervous system was rather instantenously restructured strikes me as worthy of speculation. Come to think of it I never encountered an explanation for this...

I donno, but it sure messed up our emotional response to life! Come to think of it, I'll bet Eve never had PMS....Oh well.

I think the whole thing is somewhat of a moot point, since there are no births recorded before the fall. I think Lighthouse pointed out a significant caveat to the argument.

Get yourself one of these http://www.trunkmonkey.com/content/view/65/51/ and you’ll never have to worry about pain in childbirth again...oh, but I digress. :chuckle:

 

[wholearmor]

did Bob knock over another atheist in his mind again?

:chuckle:

good for you Bob :BRAVO: way to go :thumb:

That particular atheist wasn't worthy to be on the show. He didn't represent atheists in a very intelligent light.

 

[kmoney]

I'll have to listen to the show again. Did Bob state it as fact or as one possibility?

To be honest I didn't listen to the show, I'm going off the OP by fool. My guess is, however, that Bob did NOT call it a fact, only a possibility.

 

[fool]

To be honest I didn't listen to the show, I'm going off the OP by fool. My guess is, however, that Bob did NOT call it a fact, only a possibility.

He mentioned it as a rebuttal to the Guys claims that the human body dosen't look all that well engineered. The Dr. said an inteligent designer woul have the mechanics of birth better thought out and Bob says He did! Before the fall birth was easy and then he guesses at some times and weights, the three month ten oz. being the low end of the range.

 

[Johnny]

They don't have lungs at three months do they?

By three months the lung tissue has differentiated and begun to develop, but they aren't complete. By three months most tissues have differentiated, but they aren't nearly done developing and thus aren't ready to function. A baby born at three months absolutely would not survive without medical intervention (and likely even then, I think the record is somewhere around 4.5 gestation) no matter what the environment was like. Unless the environment can regulate the babies' sodium, potassium, calcium, blood pH, blood glucose, blood volume, cardiac output, liver function, respiratory function, etc. etc. the baby would die.

What would you say the minimum gestation would be for viablity? (assuming a perfect envioronment)

It just depends on the fetus. If you define viability as a 50% chance of survival (as it usually is), the minimum with intensive medical intervention is about 24 weeks. Without intervention the minimum is probably somewhere around 8 or 9 months--which is why this is the typical term (think in evolutionary context). A baby is considered premature if it's born before 37 weeks, and premature babies usually require some form of medical intervention. I haven't taken obstetrics yet, so what I know has been gathered from other courses which have mentioned it. I've taken embryology 1, but I still have embryo 2 and 3 to go. In other words, I could be wrong.

 

[Johnny]

He did! Before the fall birth was easy and then he guesses at some times and weights, the three month ten oz. being the low end of the range.

Heh, so does Bob believe that God redesigned us after the fall?

 

[allsmiles]

That particular atheist wasn't worthy to be on the show. He didn't represent atheists in a very intelligent light.

was he a guest? if he was, your summation of his intelligence might explain why he was invited.

was he a caller?

 

[kmoney]

He mentioned it as a rebuttal to the Guys claims that the human body dosen't look all that well engineered. The Dr. said an inteligent designer woul have the mechanics of birth better thought out and Bob says He did! Before the fall birth was easy and then he guesses at some times and weights, the three month ten oz. being the low end of the range.

:think: Interesting.


But I find it interesting that the atheist was picking at things about the body that an "intelligent designer" wouldnt' have done. The body is a completely amazing thing! Give me a break. I'm not saying that that in and of itself is proof of God, but come on, nitpicking at childbirth and saying an "intelligent designer" would have done it differently? :doh:

 

[JoyfulRook]

I said what I said, and I ment what I said.

You mean "meant" right?

 

[JoyfulRook]

I'd actually like to know where the Bible states that any babies were born before the Fall.

None were. But Bob's theory is that they would have been born much younger.