Biblical Flat Enclosed Earth and Firmament

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patrick jane

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You've already rejected some of the best verses, like Job 26:7b KJV:
He ... hangeth the earth upon nothing.

What are we supposed to do when a single author seems to contradict himself: [Job 9:6 KJV]
Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.

If Job 9 says that the earth HAS pillars and Job 26 says it DOESN'T have pillars, what are we to do? Is the author of Job contradicting himself? And not only the author of Job, but Job himself said both those things.

You have to allow the scriptures to say things in parabolic language sometimes. When it speaks of pillars, does it have to mean actual physical pillars? Why? Is heaven an actual physical thing? or is it a space to put things in. Even scientists aren't sure. But Job 26 might be saying it is a space to put things in. And if you put things in it without proper physical movement, they might all become jumbled. The earth, without the movement of its orbit around the sun, might quickly fall into the sun. Thus, God's design of a solar system can be understood to mean the same as both "pillars" in Job 9 and "nothing" in Job 26.

In the flat earth model, you have to close one eye to get it to work with scripture. I'm not ready to close that eye, and I hope you aren't either.
I'm not rejecting anything. No I'm not closing one eye but allow me to give my interpretation of Job 9 and Job 26, in context. First of all, in Job 9 it's describing God's anger. I interpret that nothing can move the earth EXCEPT GOD ALONE with His perfect Will and ANGER.. There are numerous other scriptures to counter that one verse in Job 9. I see no contradictions at all in Job 9 and 26 and I will bold the key phrases and words according to my interpretation. In Job 26, the first thing that stands out are the words "and how hast though plentifully declared the thing as it is". Meaning God chooses the right words and declares it. To me, "He hangeth the earth on nothing" means exactly the opposite of what you interpret. It means the earth IS NOT HANGING AND FLYING AND SPINNING THROUGH ENDLESS SPACE. It hangs on nothing, it doesn't hang. (It has foundations, stationary, immovable, fixed per scriptures), and you've seen the rudimentary Hebrew depiction I'm sure. Even "compassed" is circular, could go either way. NOTE: ANY AND ALL SCRIPTURE OF EARTH MOVING IN ANY WAY OR THE PILLARS OF BOTH HEAVEN AND EARTH (I THINK), WILL PROBABLY BE DESCRIBING GOD'S ANGER AND WRATH IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER). I've shown in a previous post that the sun goes down and it also rises, according to God's command. IMO, that means God commands and CAUSES the SUN to go up and down NOT the earth. No mention of earth spinning to greet the sun or the earth moving in any direction. In fact, just the opposite, as you know. In another post I showed the scriptures of the earth GOD SET as a Taberbnacle FOR the sun. (I hope you've seen those posts and scriptures, I hate to keep re-posting since I'm answering multiple people people instead of one.) KJV definitions and everything.

The only way Job 26:7 KJV - makes sense to me is that the the "north" stretched out over the empty place, it can't mean the earth because the earth is not empty. Earth is not an empty place. The firmament can be although it's NOT empty, but "space"CAN BE. There are also the scriptures of a canopy, tent, and dome, like a garment, spread out and stretched ABOVE THE EARTH. I'm a firm believer that God uses the right words. Also in Job 9:7 KJV - We know that God commands the SUN not to move. Not the other way around nor does it say God makes the WHOLE HEAVEN STOP. I hope I'm being clear because I have trouble explaining things. I hope somehow you can see my point of view. Also the word Chambers or chamber as used in Job 9:9 KJV and in as in their place as they have their "circuit" (scripture and definition in previous posts as with "line") Also, in Psalm 19:4-6 KJV - the sun is a "bridegroom"coming out from it's circuit and chamber for the earth. Again, we are told that that everything around us is done with the earth at the center, in my interpretation. Earth is the focal point not some other slice of "outer space" 14 billion light years away that is NOT ABOVE THE EARTH. I could go on as I see more everyday lately not even considering the connections to deception in the conspiracy thread. The reason I'm enlarging fonts is because the text looks really small to me on the computer I have. Always an excuse, right? I hope you don't respond to this in 3 minutes and not absorbing what I'm trying to say and I'm sorry for the annoyance of the fonts. There's also several verses about the ends of heavens and/or end of heaven (which we can't see the entirety of in spinning ball scenario). The's a lot more when you look. Laying the cornerstone also means stable and fixed in place. I'm rambling.


Job 26 - KJV -
But Job answered and said,2 How hast thou helped him that is without power? how savest thou the arm that hath no strength?
3 How hast thou counselled him that hath no wisdom? and how hast thou plentifully declared the thing as it is?
4 To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?
5 Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof.
6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
8 He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.
9 He holdeth back the face of his throne, and spreadeth his cloud upon it.
10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.
11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.
12 He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud.
13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.
14 Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?




Job 9:1-13 KJV - Then Job answered and said,2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?
3 If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.
4 He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened himself against him, and hath prospered?
5 Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger.
6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.
7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.
8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
9 Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south.
10 Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.
11 Lo, he goeth by me, and I see him not: he passeth on also, but I perceive him not.
12 Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?
13 If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him.
Psalm 19:4-6 KJV - Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

Job 38:4-14 KJV - Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12 Hast thoucommanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.




 
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patrick jane

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Are you saying the sun is a sentient being? It actually "knows" something? You have to be careful where you take poetic language. It's valuable, but do we understand its intent? That's why I quoted from Job 9 and 26. Those verses could be seen to be contradictory, but I don't think they were meant to be.

I can't guarantee that the sun isn't a sentient being, but there aren't too many of these videos suggesting that's the case. Why not? Isn't that just as important? Can we talk to the sun? Can it tell us of its knowledge?

Maybe, if David were writing to someone standing on the sun, he would have said something about the earth knowing its going down. But from the earth viewpoint, the earth doesn't move. It doesn't spin, it doesn't circle the sun, and it doesn't hurtle through space. It's a viewpoint thing. There's not much reason for David or Job or most others to comment on it. Moses, maybe, but he didn't.
Brother, see my post before this one to you. I'm in NO way saying the sun has a mind of it's own. God commands it everyday. God sets the Tabernacle for the sun. The earth is that tabernacle. God commands the sun and everything else that moves (the earth doesn't move) as I've established. There's another word, established. God does everything. This seems too difficult to explain to you and you're obviously not getting, hearing or seeing what I'm trying to say. Try to take the simple words that God gives us to understand what HE is saying. Forget about me and scientific complications. Focus on what God DOES reveal to us in simple words. I'm sorry for the misunderstandings. But I have really enjoyed it Derf. Post all you want here even if we don't communicate (but I hope we do).

Job 38:12 KJV - Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

KJV Dictionary Definition: dayspring

dayspring

DA'YSPRING, n. The dawn; the beginning of the day, or first appearance of light.


DAYSPRING - Definition from the KJV Dictionary - AV1611.Com @Derf - to see my edit
 
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Derf

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I'm not rejecting anything. No I'm not closing one eye but allow me to give my interpretation of Job 9 and Job 26, in context. First of all, in Job 9 it's describing God's anger. I interpret that nothing can move the earth EXCEPT GOD ALONE with His perfect Will and ANGER.. There are numerous other scriptures to counter that one verse in Job 9. I see no contradictions at all in Job 9 and 26 and I will bold the key phrases and words according to my interpretation. In Job 26, the first thing that stands out are the words "and how hast though plentifully declared the thing as it is". Meaning God chooses the right words and declares it. To me, "He hangeth the earth on nothing" means exactly the opposite of what you interpret. It means the earth IS NOT HANGING AND FLYING AND SPINNING THROUGH ENDLESS SPACE. It hangs on nothing, it doesn't hang. (It has foundations, stationary, immovable, fixed per scriptures), and you've seen the rudimentary Hebrew depiction I'm sure. Even "compassed" is circular, could go either way. NOTE: ANY AND ALL SCRIPTURE OF EARTH MOVING IN ANY WAY OR THE PILLARS OF BOTH HEAVEN AND EARTH (I THINK), WILL PROBABLY BE DESCRIBING GOD'S ANGER AND WRATH IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER). I've shown in a previous post that the sun goes down and it also rises. IMO, that means the SUN goes up and down NOT the earth. No mention of earth spinning to greet the sun or the earth moving in any direction. In fact, just the opposite, as you know. In another post I showed the scriptures of the earth SET as a Taberbnacle FOR the sun. (I hope you've seen those posts and scriptures, I hate to keep re-posting since I'm answering multiple people people instead of one.) KJV definitions and everything.

The only way Job 26:7 KJV - makes sense to me is that the the "north" stretched out over the empty place, it can't mean the earth because the earth is not empty. Earth is not an empty place. The firmament can be although it's NOT empty, but "space"CAN BE. There are also the scriptures of a canopy, tent, and dome, like a garment, spread out and stretched ABOVE THE EARTH. I'm a firm believer that God uses the right words. Also in Job 9:7 KJV - We know that God commands the SUN not to move. Not the other way around nor does it say God makes the WHOLE HEAVEN STOP. I hope I'm being clear because I have trouble explaining things. I hope somehow you can see my point of view. Also the word Chamber or chamber as used in Job 9:9 KJV and in as in their place as they have their "circuit" (scripture and definition in previous posts as with "line") Also, in Psalm 19:4-6 KJV - the sun is a "bridegroom"coming out from it's circuit and chamber for the earth. Again, we are told that that everything around us is done with the earth at the center, in my interpretation. Earth is the focal point not some other slice of "outer space" 14 billion light years away that is NOT ABOVE THE EARTH. I could go on as I see more everyday lately not even considering the connections to deception in the conspiracy thread. The reason I'm enlarging fonts is because the text looks really small to me on the computer I have. Always an excuse, right? I hope you don't respond to this in 3 minutes and not absorbing what I'm trying to say and I'm sorry for the annoyance of the fonts. There's also several verses about the ends of heavens and/or end of heaven (which we can't see the entirety of in spinning ball scenario). The's a lot more when you look. Laying the cornerstone also means stable and fixed in place. I'm rambling.


Job 26 - KJV -
[FONT=&]But Job answered and said,[/FONT][FONT=&]2 How hast thou helped him that is without power? how savest thou the arm that hath no strength?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]3 How hast thou counselled him that hath no wisdom? and how hast thou plentifully declared the thing as it is?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]4 To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]5 Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]8 He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]9 He holdeth back the face of his throne, and spreadeth his cloud upon it.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]12 He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]14 Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?[/FONT]




Job 9:1-13 KJV - [FONT=&]Then Job answered and said,[/FONT][FONT=&]2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]3 If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]4 He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened himself against him, and hath prospered?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]5 Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]9 Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]10 Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]11 Lo, he goeth by me, and I see him not: he passeth on also, but I perceive him not.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]12 Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]13 If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him.[/FONT]

Job 9 - KJV - [FONT=&]Then Job answered and said,[/FONT][FONT=&]2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]3 If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]4 He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened himself against him, and hath prospered?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]5 Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]9 Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]10 Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]11 Lo, he goeth by me, and I see him not: he passeth on also, but I perceive him not.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]12 Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]13 If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]14 How much less shall I answer him, and choose out my words to reason with him?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]15 Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]16 If I had called, and he had answered me; yet would I not believe that he had hearkened unto my voice.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]18 He will not suffer me to take my breath, but filleth me with bitterness.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]19 If I speak of strength, lo, he is strong: and if of judgment, who shall set me a time to plead?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]21 Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]22 This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]25 Now my days are swifter than a post: they flee away, they see no good.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]26 They are passed away as the swift ships: as the eagle that hasteth to the prey.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]27 If I say, I will forget my complaint, I will leave off my heaviness, and comfort myself:[/FONT]
[FONT=&]28 I am afraid of all my sorrows, I know that thou wilt not hold me innocent.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]29 If I be wicked, why then labour I in vain?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]30 If I wash myself with snow water, and make my hands never so clean;[/FONT]
[FONT=&]31 Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch, and mine own clothes shall abhor me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me:[/FONT]
[FONT=&]35 Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me

Psalm 19:4-6 KJV - Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,[/FONT]

[FONT=&]5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

Job 38:4-14 KJV - Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.[/FONT]

[FONT=&]5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;[/FONT]
[FONT=&]7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,[/FONT]
[FONT=&]10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,[/FONT]
[FONT=&]11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;[/FONT]
[FONT=&]13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.




[/FONT]

But if you're going to interpret away one verse that doesn't agree with your position, you've got to allow others to interpret away other verses that don't agree with theirs. And so there's no position that can be defended at all.

We need to come to an interpretation that makes sense for all of the text we are using, as best we can.

We also need to be careful we don't conflate all of the issues into one. If the verses talk about pillars, that doesn't preclude a globe earth, even if the pillars are physical in nature (and not a poetic way to say the earth is stable).

The "north stretched over an empty place" part bothers me--I appreciate your thoughts there. I'm not sure how it makes sense in either view. But the reference to hanging on nothing can't really mean that he doesn't hang it at all. Just like if He were to "set the earth upon nothing" doesn't mean He doesn't set the earth at all. It might not have anything to do with cosmology, I'll grant. But if it's cosmological, then it tells something about how He hangs the earth and not how He doesn't hang the earth.

I think Isaiah 40:22's "circle of the earth" is contradictory to Is 11:12's "four corners of the earth". Is the flat earth a circle (with no corners) or a square (that's not a circle)? More likely that one or both of these are not meant to determine cosmology from. My preference is that Is 11:12 is referring to the north, south, east, and west, all of which are present in either model.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Brother, see my post before this one to you. I'm in NO way saying the sun has a mind of it's own. God commands it everyday. God sets the Tabernacle for the sun. The earth is that tabernacle. God commands the sun and everything else that moves (the earth doesn't move) as I've established. There's another word, established. God does everything. This seems too difficult to explain to you and you're obviously not getting, hearing or seeing what I'm trying to say. Try to take the simple words that God gives us to understand what HE is saying. Forget about me. I'm sorry for the misunderstandings. But I have really enjoyed it Derf. Post all you want here even if we don't communicate (but I hope we do).

Job 38:12 KJV - [FONT=&]Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;[/FONT]

KJV Dictionary Definition: dayspring

dayspring

DA'YSPRING, n. The dawn; the beginning of the day, or first appearance of light.


DAYSPRING - Definition from the KJV Dictionary - AV1611.Com

I appreciate that you are still willing to explain what you are trying to say. I have been reading them, and looking at some of your videos and references.

I think "established" fits very well with the globe model. I mentioned angular momentum before, which is something we use on our satellites to keep them steady--we call it "spin-stabilized mode". Have you ever done the bicycle experiment, where you hold a spinning bicycle wheel by the axle and try to turn it? It's worth a try, if you haven't. The faster the wheel spins, the harder it is to move it. If the "frimament" is really empty space, and if gravity really does cause things to be attracted to each other (as well as magnetism and other forces either attracting or repulsing), then there needs to be a mechanism to hold them in place. This mechanism might just be the spinning and orbiting that's going on--it seems to be the case for all the systems we can see in our telescopes, including stars that orbit each other. The sun is spinning, from what we can tell. Jupiter spins, Mars spins, Venus spins, Saturn spins, etc. To me, it seems the Lord, who knew about angular momentum, established the planets in their places by spinning them. Why not the earth?

I have some issue with saying that our simple understanding of the words in the bible is all that was intended by God. It might be in some places, but it might not be in others. I'm mostly a literalist, but I'm willing to allow the words to be otherwise employed--it's not up to me, after all.
 

patrick jane

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I appreciate that you are still willing to explain what you are trying to say. I have been reading them, and looking at some of your videos and references.

I think "established" fits very well with the globe model. I mentioned angular momentum before, which is something we use on our satellites to keep them steady--we call it "spin-stabilized mode". Have you ever done the bicycle experiment, where you hold a spinning bicycle wheel by the axle and try to turn it? It's worth a try, if you haven't. The faster the wheel spins, the harder it is to move it. If the "frimament" is really empty space, and if gravity really does cause things to be attracted to each other (as well as magnetism and other forces either attracting or repulsing), then there needs to be a mechanism to hold them in place. This mechanism might just be the spinning and orbiting that's going on--it seems to be the case for all the systems we can see in our telescopes, including stars that orbit each other. The sun is spinning, from what we can tell. Jupiter spins, Mars spins, Venus spins, Saturn spins, etc. To me, it seems the Lord, who knew about angular momentum, established the planets in their places by spinning them. Why not the earth?

I have some issue with saying that our simple understanding of the words in the bible is all that was intended by God. It might be in some places, but it might not be in others. I'm mostly a literalist, but I'm willing to allow the words to be otherwise employed--it's not up to me, after all.
I'm not saying to "think" simple rather, that God doesn't use overly complicated words. God uses simple words that can be understood and who can question them or add:
"If the "frimament" is really empty space, and if gravity really does cause things to be attracted to each other (as well as magnetism and other forces either attracting or repulsing), then there needs to be a mechanism to hold them in place. This mechanism might just be the spinning and orbiting that's going on--it seems to be the case for all the systems we can see in our telescopes, including stars that orbit each other. The sun is spinning, from what we can tell. Jupiter spins, Mars spins, Venus spins, Saturn spins, etc. To me, it seems the Lord, who knew about angular momentum, established the planets in their places by spinning them. Why not the earth?"

Do you KNOW all those planets spin, have you seen them spinning? Mechanisms and other "forces" that God doesn't mention? By not understanding what you read in the Bible and then adding all kinds of forces and mechanisms, tilts, axis, possibly inaccurate measurements of earth's size. shape and calculations, leads to error. If you think all the verses I posted are mostly allegory because mankind wouldn't understand all the "mechanisms", and we don't need to know anyway. That God would use simple understandable words with clear definitions because we're simple and we take things too literal is preposterous. Perhaps God didn't tell us BECAUSE we don't need to know and He tells everything WE DO NEED TO KNOW. That makes sense. All of the other reasoning and extra non-biblical stuff that must be done to "make sense of it all" seems highly unlikely from what God actually tells us. Like: " something we use on our satellites to keep them steady--we call it "spin-stabilized mode". Or: "take a spinning bicycle wheel and spin it faster and faster, that's how it works." Anyway, we're certainly not even close to being on the same page and we obviously see completely different things in scripture.

KJV Dictionary Definition: establish

establish

ESTAB'LISH, v.t. L. stabilio; Heb. to set, fix, establish.
1. To set and fix firmly or unalterably; to settle permanently.
I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant. Gen.17.
2. To found permanently; to erect and fix or settle; as, to establish a colony or an empire.
3. To enact or decree by authority and for permanence; to ordain; to appoint; as, to establish laws, regulations, institutions, rules, ordinances, &c.
4. To settle or fix; to confirm; as, to establish a person, society or corporation, in possessions or privileges.
5. To make firm; to confirm; to ratify what has been previously set or made.
Do we then make void the law through faith?
God forbid; yea, we establish the law. Rom.3.
6. To settle or fix what is wavering, doubtful or weak; to confirm.

Plain Clear Words Straight From God -
 
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patrick jane

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Psalm 119:89-90 KJV - [FONT=&quot]For ever, O [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot], thy word is settled in heaven.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]90 Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth[/FONT]
 

patrick jane

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Reread what I said: your flat earth model requires that you ignore what Psa19:4 says, "Their LINE, (not circle), has gone forth through all the earth. It is speaking of the luminaries in the firmament of the heavens, and especially the sun, which travels in a LINE across the arch of the sky, which your flat earth model says is not a line but a circle. Also see the video I posted above which proves the same thing: that the sun travels a line across the sky, not a circle going around the surface of the earth. The Psalm literally says a LINE which you are ignoring.
Line is not a globe either then. A circle can be a line drawn as a circle. Next. The sun has a circuit. You don't see any scriptures about the earth "going around the sun, spinning, moving or flying", you're lost on this topic.:wave2:
 
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patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Reread what saith scripture. Your video was amateur hour for 17 minutes. He said things like "the flat earthers have just been lucky" he says, that because they can attach mystery to Antarctica that's why it was popular. I suspect that once one see the truth they tire of telling the dumb and blind world. Some people understand, others never will, the globe is ingrained in your brain. Perhaps by somewhat of a revelation it hits you. You are the one putting extra non-biblical meaning to the words circuit and lines. Read what it says, not what you say. The WHOLE heaven, the END OF THE HEAVEN..We're not zipping through "space" at millions upon millions of miles per hour while spinning 1,000 miles per hour. The earth has satellites, some of which are the sun and moon. Did you watch and listen to the eclipse from a plane video yet? Deal with it internally for a while.

What do these verses describe to you?

Psalm 19:1-6 KJV - The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.

Job 37:3 KJV - He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.


Job 28:24-27 KJV - For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;

25 To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure.
26 When he made a decree for the rain, and a way for the lightning of the thunder:
27 Then did he see it, and declare it; he prepared it, yea, and searched it out.


Under the WHOLE heaven is an enclosed flat earth and cosmos or could be. Because if the whole heaven is as big as science says, that would require other planets
with life, waters, under the whole heaven. None of which is mentioned in scripture. It sounds to me there that the tabernacle for the sun makes the earth the center of the "universe", the earth is the tabernacle.

CIRCUIT - Definition from the KJV Dictionary - AV1611.Com

KJV Dictionary Definition: circuit

circuit

CIRCUIT, n.
1. The act of moving or passing round; as the periodical circuit of the earth round the sun, or of the moon round the earth. - (Wrong. The earth is fixed, immovable and established)
circuiteer

CIRCUITEER, n. One that travels a circuit.
circuition

CIRCUITION, n. The act of going round; compass; circumlocution.
circuitous

CIRCUITOUS, a. Going round in a circuit; not direct; as a circuitous road or course.
circuitously

CIRCUITOUSLY, adv. In a circuit.


LINE, n. L. linea, linum; Gr. flax.
1. In geometry, a quantity extended in length, without breadth or thickness; or a limit terminating a surface.


KJV Dictionary Definition: breadth - Definition Number 1.

breadth

BREADTH, n. bredth. The measure or extent of any plain surface from side to side; a geometrical dimension, which,multiplied into the length, constitutes a surface; as,the length of a table is five feet, and the breadth, three; 5x3=15 feet, the whole surface.



KJV Dictionary Definition: compass

compass

Stretch; reach; extent; the limit or boundary of a space, and the space included; applied to time, space, sound, &c. Our knowledge lies within a very narrow compass. The universe extends beyond the compass of our thoughts. So we say, the compass of a year, the compass of an empire, the compass of reason, the compass of the voice.
And in that compass all the world contains.
2. A passing round; a circular course; a circuit.
Time is come round;


2. A passing round; a circular course; a circuit.
Time is come round;
and where I did begin, thee shall I end:
And in that compass all the world contains.


KJV Dictionary Definition: line

line

1. In geometry, a quantity extended in length, without breadth or thickness; or a limit terminating a surface.

The end of heaven. If the whole heaven is above earth that means it's enclosed as scripture says. God seals up the stars in scripture. Well, they're not sealed up if they're rocketing through endless space at millions of mph. If earth is "under the whole heaven" that rules out the billions of light years of "outer space" that is NOT above the earth. It goes on and on, No scriptures for a globe or a ball earth.

So in Job we see that that sun travels a circuit and goes to the END OF HEAVEN and earth is UNDER THE WHOLE HEAVEN. In a globe model the end of heaven would be billions of LIGHT YEARS AWAY. Does the sun travel that far ? Does the sun run a circuit to THE END OF THE HEAVEN? It might in an enclosed flat earth and cosmos. God uses the right words every time.

Job 9:7 KJV - Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.

Psalm 19:4-6 KJV -
Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.


 
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patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
God stops the sun and moon for "about a whole day." - Joshua - God never says He stopped the earth from moving. In a globe earth universe at the very least the earth would have to stop also. If the universe is EXPANDING at millions upon millions of miles per hour then feasibly the whole heaven might have to stop. It only makes IN an enclosed flat earth and cosmos. The earth is stationary, fixed, established, on foundations, immovable. Only God can shake the foundations.


Joshua 10:11-14 KJV - And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the Lord cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.12 Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the Lordhearkened unto the voice of a man: for the Lord fought for Israel

ESTABLISH - Definition from the KJV Dictionary - AV1611.Com

av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/establish.html



KJV Dictionary Definition: establish

establish

ESTAB'LISH, v.t. L. stabilio; Heb. to set, fix, establish.
1. To set and fix firmly or unalterably; to settle permanently.
I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant. Gen.17.
2. To found permanently; to erect and fix or settle; as, to establish a colony or an empire.
3. To enact or decree by authority and for permanence; to ordain; to appoint; as, to establish laws, regulations, institutions, rules, ordinances, &c.
4. To settle or fix; to confirm; as, to establish a person, society or corporation, in possessions or privileges.
5. To make firm; to confirm; to ratify what has been previously set or made.
Do we then make void the law through faith?
God forbid; yea, we establish the law. Rom.3.
6. To settle or fix what is wavering, doubtful or weak; to confirm.

Psalm 24 - KJV - The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.2 For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.
3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
5 He shall receive the blessing from the Lord, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
6 This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
8 Who is this King of glory? The Lord strong and mighty, the Lordmighty in battle.
9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
10 Who is this King of glory? The Lord of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.
 

daqq

Well-known member
Line is not a globe either then. A circle is a line drawn as a circle. Next. The sun has a circuit. You don't see any scriptures about the earth "going around the sun, spinning, moving or flying", you're lost on this topic.:wave2:

How can I lose when I do not even read the scripture the same way you do? much less Genesis 1? When I said that you are treating the scripture unfairly, or "using unfair balances and scales", (an idiom), I was making a point to you that does not even concern myself. It was really just an attempt to help you. There is a war in your heavens: the battle is not with me but with and in your mind, in the aethereal realms of your own mind and heavens, (lol). And if you overcome, it will not be me that you overcome, but rather your own mind. But if you do not change your thinking you will not overcome yourself. If you are going to read the scripture one certain way, then read it that way throughout, and do not flip-flop when it would result in refuting what you believe: otherwise how can the Word of Elohim teach you anything? ("And they shall all be taught of Elohim"). My point was really quite simple, and I will try to make it once more here in the simplest way I know how:

In one place you insist that a circle must be a circle and absolutely cannot be a sphere, essentially saying, Read the text for what it says and change nothing! But when it comes to another passage which has a line, you flip-flop, essentially saying, Well, it is not really a line but a circle, because a circle is a line drawn as a circle.

Can you not see the error of your reasoning and the unfair balances and scales you are using in your own reading of the various texts concerning this topic? And moreover this applies throughout, in everything you read, not just this topic. This error has nothing to do with you-vs-me or me-vs-you but instead concerns you-vs-your own aethereal mind, (lol, I managed to get the name of that video in three times including the following).

PJ's Prince of the Power of the Air Aethereal Axioms:
#1) A circle is a circle and not a sphere! Read the text for what it says!
#2) A line is a circle because a circle is drawn by a line!

Whether you change your thinking or not has nothing to do with me. :)
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
How can I lose when I do not even read the scripture the same way you do? much less Genesis 1? When I said that you are treating the scripture unfairly, or "using unfair balances and scales", (an idiom), I was making a point to you that does not even concern myself. It was really just an attempt to help you. There is a war in your heavens: the battle is not with me but with and in your mind, in the aethereal realms of your own mind and heavens, (lol). And if you overcome, it will not be me that you overcome, but rather your own mind. But if you do not change your thinking you will not overcome yourself. If you are going to read the scripture one certain way, then read it that way throughout, and do not flip-flop when it would result in refuting what you believe: otherwise how can the Word of Elohim teach you anything? ("And they shall all be taught of Elohim"). My point was really quite simple, and I will try to make it once more here in the simplest way I know how:

In one place you insist that a circle must be a circle and absolutely cannot be a sphere, essentially saying, Read the text for what it says and change nothing! But when it comes to another passage which has a line, you flip-flop, essentially saying, Well, it is not really a line but a circle, because a circle is a line drawn as a circle.

Can you not see the error of your reasoning and the unfair balances and scales you are using in your own reading of the various texts concerning this topic? And moreover this applies throughout, in everything you read, not just this topic. This error has nothing to do with you-vs-me or me-vs-you but instead concerns you-vs-your own aethereal mind, (lol, I managed to get the name of that video in three times including the following).

PJ's Prince of the Power of the Air Aethereal Axioms:
#1) A circle is a circle and not a sphere! Read the text for what it says!
#2) A line is a circle because a circle is drawn by a line!

Whether you change your thinking or not has nothing to do with me. :)
Do you read any of my other posts and interpretations, for instance this page, or do you only read the posts I make to you? The definition of circuit? Nah, just move on. The earth could be a circle squared which is a real thing. That could also explain the Four Corners of the earth. @daqq
 

daqq

Well-known member
Do you read any of my other posts and interpretations, for instance this page, or do you only read the posts I make to you? The definition of circuit? Nah, just move on. The earth could be a circle squared which is a real thing. That could also explain the Four Corners of the earth. @daqq

If you want me to "just move on" then why do you keep responding to me and mentioning my name? I already waved goodbye twice now.
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Also, if the earth is in space and flying while spinning then it's IN THE FIRMAMENT (COSMOS). God doesn't say the earth is in the firmament but under the the firmament. The heavens are ABOVE the earth. In the flying through "space" globe delusion the firmament is UNDER earth as well and all around it. Read what God tells us. Do some research and study if you have time, everybody. God places the sun, moon, stars and other heavenly bodies IN THE FIRMAMENT. But not earth.
 
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patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
If you want me to "just move on" then why do you keep responding to me and mentioning my name? I already waved goodbye twice now.
You didn't wave bye this time and I waved bye at least once. :chuckle: I like your input and interpretations and the scriptures you post. It makes me think. You are a stuck on the word "line" as if that helps prove a flying spinning ball. If you would read my posts and interpretations you will likely see what I'm saying on the last page and circuits etc. I'm saying the words "line" and "compass" and "hangs on nothing" can be a globe or flat earth. Look at all the scriptures that are better and make more sense for an enclosed flat earth and cosmos. It's possible with God. BTW, I tend to respond to posts, wave or not. Go figure.

There's also a video 1Mind posted in the conspiracy thread that's ALL mathematics FOR FLAT EARTH, something I've been looking for since I started thinking it's possible. If you watch from the very beginning he explains the whole process and you see him doing it as he explains. I may break my own rule of no science in this thread just to let more people see it. It answers the most important questions. I understand if you're not interested anymore. If you wave bye now I won't reply. Have a good Friday daqq.
 
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patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Do Not miss the first five minutes, if you think it's stupid quit watching.


In the next week or even later, try to watch this video that 1Mind1Spirit posted. I just watched it and it's ALL math. The first time I have EVER seen math that's explained in detail and shown as he does it. Talk about perfect timing for anyone and everyone that keeps pointing out the angles of the sun by triangulating. I know I've said this at least twice but this is the best video and the best proof WITH MATH for a flat earth. I learned a lot and you folks might too. He explains everything while showing you EXACTLY what he does and how he does it. I'm only going to tag four people who have been "following" the thread.

Globe Earth Math - 100% Debunked
https://youtu.be/fIhgFT-OipU - Click on link for full screen view -

<font color="#ff8c00"><font size="5"><span style="font-family: &amp"><strong>

If math and the size of earth help you think we're on a globe this is a must watch. Watch it and weep globers.
 
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Right Divider

Body part
Your globe math is the straw man as proven by the video I tagged you in. Time to face facts RD.
You're just so gullible PJ.

My FLAT EARTH math is perfectly legitimate and proves beyond any doubt that the earth is NOT flat. On a flat earth the sun would be visible 24 HOURS A DAY since it is ALWAYS 3000 miles ABOVE the surface of the earth.
 
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