Balder On Morals

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Lighthouse

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Balder said:
That's interesting, Lighthouse. No indication that God is involved directly in this? What does the following sentence mean to you:

"For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;..."?
So He gathers the nations together. So what? There is still nothing to say that He orchestrates the things they'll do. He just knows how wicked they are, and what they will do. But there is nowhere that says He'll make them do it. That's an even worse, and more pathetic excuse than, "The devil made me do it."
 

allsmiles

New member
Lighthouse said:
So He gathers the nations together. So what? There is still nothing to say that He orchestrates the things they'll do. He just knows how wicked they are, and what they will do. But there is nowhere that says He'll make them do it. That's an even worse, and more pathetic excuse than, "The devil made me do it."

Hi Fugly :wave2:

2nd Kings 17:20 And the LORD rejected all the descendants of Israel, afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of plunderers, until HE had cast them from His sight. 21 For HE tore Israel from the house of David, and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king.

Not only did he orchestrate it, he made it happen personally. Broadening the context was a sure fire way to shoot your non-biblically based, subjective, hyper-emotional argument right in the proverbial foot.

I also noticed that you didn't respond to any of my posts.

Between myself and what your book says, it's not I that you'd like to get rid of.
 

Balder

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If he gathers them and sends them against Jerusalem, knowing what they're going to do, he's involved in what they do. He's using them as agents of judgment, which includes "rape" as part of that judgment.
 

Lighthouse

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Balder said:
If he gathers them and sends them against Jerusalem, knowing what they're going to do, he's involved in what they do. He's using them as agents of judgment, which includes "rape" as part of that judgment.
You're an idiot.
 

Balder

New member
Lighthouse said:
You're an idiot.
:chuckle: the standard response of the blow-hard when he has no rational way to defend himself.

And I expect I'm a lot smarter than you, kiddo.
 

Chileice

New member
Balder said:
Okay, Nineveh, although I did read all of the passages you quoted, this time I went back and read several chapters before and after Zechariah 14. Something is not clear to me: At the end of Zechariah 13, is God saying he is going to destroy two thirds of his own people (e.g., Jews or Christians, not pagans), saving one third to be purified?

Wow! What a day! I am coming to Nineveh's defense. The Day of the Lord may be closer than we think :patrol:
First, this is a continuation of the dramatic battle scene set up in chapter 13. This is part of the "Remnant Theology" which is prevelant throughout the OT and into the NT. There will always be a faithful people who choose to walk with God, come hell or high water; rape or torture; pestilence or destruction. If you are willing to dig, you will see parallel passages in other prophetic books where God says his people will be judged, but that those who chastise them will be held accountable for their actions.

I suppose, as Granite said, you have to account for this as the permissive will of God but not his prescriptive will. He is not demanding that the women be raped, but rather, that is what will happen at the hands of evil people trying to overrun God's people. Obviously, in such a scenario, the just and unjust alike will suffer, but the suffering for the just will be a purifying fire to solidify their "remnant status, whereas, the judgment for the wicked will reveal their lack of faithfulness.

More on the next post!
 

Balder

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An interesting (and common) sub-theme to this thread is that pagans can be expected to behave more evilly than Christians and Jews. That pagans (non-Christians) are God-haters who will resort to all manner of evil.

There are pagan traditions that are definitely more peaceful than the Judeo-Christian ones in both theory and historical record.

Ain't no way around that simple fact.
 

Chileice

New member
Here is an excellent example of the Lord allowing Israel to face the wrath of a foreign nation, so that they might return and be faithful rather than persist in their faithlessness. Yet, Assyria will not be held without blame for the evil they bring on His people.

Isaiah 10
1Woe to those who decree iniquitous decrees,
and the writers who keep writing oppression,
2to turn aside the needy from justice
and to rob the poor of my people of their right,
that widows may be their spoil,
and that they may make the fatherless their prey!
3What will you do on the day of punishment,
in the ruin that will come from afar?
To whom will you flee for help,
and where will you leave your wealth?
4Nothing remains but to crouch among the prisoners
or fall among the slain.
For all this his anger has not turned away,
and his hand is stretched out still.



Judgment on Arrogant Assyria
5Ah, Assyria, the rod of my anger;
the staff in their hands is my fury!
6Against a godless nation I send him,
and against the people of my wrath I command him,
to take spoil and seize plunder,
and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
7But he does not so intend,
and his heart does not so think;
but it is in his heart to destroy,
and to cut off nations not a few;
8for he says:
"Are not my commanders all kings?
9Is not Calno like Carchemish?
Is not Hamath like Arpad?
Is not Samaria like Damascus?
10As my hand has reached to the kingdoms of the idols,
whose carved images were greater than those of Jerusalem and Samaria,
11shall I not do to Jerusalem and her idols
as I have done to Samaria and her images?"


12When the Lord has finished all his work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, he will punish the speech of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the boastful look in his eyes. 13For he says:

"By the strength of my hand I have done it,
and by my wisdom, for I have understanding;
I remove the boundaries of peoples,
and plunder their treasures;
like a bull I bring down those who sit on thrones.
14My hand has found like a nest
the wealth of the peoples;
and as one gathers eggs that have been forsaken,
so I have gathered all the earth;
and there was none that moved a wing
or opened the mouth or chirped."


God withstands the proud and the arrogant and those who refuse to bow down to Him. He has every right to do that as Creator. Perhaps what is NOT so amazing is the punishment. What IS amazing is the patience. God would warn and relent and wanted a loving relationship with His people but they would not, even as the children of Jerusalem would not in the time of Jesus.

Ezra was able to proclaim this:
" For we are slaves; yet in our bondage our God has not forsaken us, but has extended lovingkindness to us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us reviving to raise up the house of our God, to restore its ruins and to give us a wall in Judah and Jerusalem.

The lovingkindness of God, his HeSeD love, is a covenant love which was shown to Israel time and again. Is there judgement with God? Yes, without a doubt. But is their mercy? An even more resounding YES.

Even before the historical watershed of the cross, even hundreds of years prior, hear what Nehemiah said:
15"You)provided bread from heaven for them for their hunger,
You brought forth water from a rock for them for their thirst,
And You told them to enter in order to possess
The land which You swore to give them.
16"But they, our fathers, acted arrogantly;
They became stubborn and would not listen to Your commandments.
17"They refused to listen,
And did not remember Your wondrous deeds which You had performed among them;
So they became stubborn and appointed a leader to return to their slavery in Egypt
But You are a God of forgiveness,
Gracious and compassionate,
Slow to anger and abounding in lovingkindness;
And You did not forsake them.
18"Even when they made for themselves
A calf of molten metal
And said, 'This is your God
Who brought you up from Egypt,'
And committed great blasphemies,
19You, in Your great compassion,
Did not forsake them in the wilderness;
The pillar of cloud did not leave them by day,
To guide them on their way,
Nor the pillar of fire by night, to light for them the way in which they were to go.
20"You gave Your good Spirit to instruct them,
Your manna You did not withhold from their mouth,
And You gave them water for their thirst.
 

Chileice

New member
Balder said:
An interesting (and common) sub-theme to this thread is that pagans can be expected to behave more evilly than Christians and Jews. That pagans (non-Christians) are God-haters who will resort to all manner of evil.

There are pagan traditions that are definitely more peaceful than the Judeo-Christian ones in both theory and historical record.

Ain't no way around that simple fact.

No doubt about it. That is why God tried to get the attention of those who claimed to be his and lived like they were from hell.
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Balder said:
It's clear to me now, Nineveh. God was displeased with Israel and turned from it, allowing its inhabitants to be raped and killed by enemy nations as an expression of his judgment against it.

Before I do anything else you ask me to, I am going to ask you to just explain your understanding of the sentence we have been discussing. You insist that the context demands that we read it in a particular way, but it seems you are trying to get it to be less actively worded, and less directly attributed to God's activity and will, than it actually is. Why did God say, "For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem" if He didn't mean that?

Once again I am left with the option to cut and paste the answer from a previous post:

"How does God "draw" these pagans against Israel? Does He "possess" them? No. Did He "predestine" all this "from before the foundation of the world"? No. Does He write down some instructions for them? No. Does He send them some subliminal messages during Friday Night Football? No."

You keep missing the pagans are merely doing what they do best, hate God.

If you do not answer this directly, I will consider YOU to be wasting my time.

Oh please balder. As often as you have harped on this silly accusation you have the opportunity to thoroughly present your point, and this is the best you can manage. What you are trying to do is akin to building an entire doctrine on one sentence. It's ignorant, and I truly expected more from this dialog.

Balder said:
An interesting (and common) sub-theme to this thread is that pagans can be expected to behave more evilly than Christians and Jews. That pagans (non-Christians) are God-haters who will resort to all manner of evil.

I think you are missing the fact God warns Israel many many times this stuff will happen if they turn from Him and worship the same pagan gods. When Israel disobeys and chases after foriegn gods, God let's the idols protect them and what He tells them will happen does. Bondage, rape, looting, etc. In the end times the judgements poured out will be servere and pagans will look for someone to retaliate against, which will make Israel's woes all that much more great than the ones spoken of in Hosea.

There are pagan traditions that are definitely more peaceful than the Judeo-Christian ones in both theory and historical record.

Wow... you mean all that human sacrifice was made up? That is wishful thinking.
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
dopey said:
Zechariah:

4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.

So your god has feet and legs?

Yes, dopey, Christ is coming back. I guess this faux pas was made from ignoring post 18. Please do try to catch up if you want to participate in any meaningful way. I've already deleted more of your spam posts, the ice you walk on won't bear any more.
 

Balder

New member
Nineveh,

Personally, I'm glad that you are not comfortable with the idea that God would "use" rape directly and deliberately as a form of punishment. I think that's a pretty rotten idea too. I'm just not convinced, yet, that the ancient writers of the Bible agree. Looking at an even broader context than you have mentioned, I think a number of narratives in the Bible suggest that God actively arranges for different horrendous events: sending pestilences, causing floods, killing firstborns, dropping fire from the sky, etc. In Isaiah, we read the words, "Howl ye; for the day of the LORD [is] at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty," and then a few short verses later, all of which describe what kind of destruction is coming from the Almighty, we read: "Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." Here again, it appears God is "behind" these events, and is in fact "using" them to punish the people and "cleanse" the land: "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."

If God can cause pestilences and natural disasters, and have these things be an expression of his will; if God can "stir up the Medes" in battle and have this be an expression of his will ... it seems likely that the authors of this text also saw the "ravishing of wives" as something also "coming" from the Lord as an expression of his wrath and judgment upon human beings.

Best wishes,

Balder

P.S. Pagans are hardly all practitioners of human sacrifice. Many don't even kill animals to eat them!
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Balder said:
Nineveh,

Personally, I'm glad that you are not comfortable with the idea that God would "use" rape directly and deliberately as a form of punishment.

It's not about "comfort". When God warned His people not to follow other gods, associate with pagans or make pacts with them, He also told them why. When God's Words get fullfilled, it's rather dishonest to then try to make God out like He is somehow responsible.

I think that's a pretty rotten idea too. I'm just not convinced, yet, that the ancient writers of the Bible agree. Looking at an even broader context than you have mentioned, I think a number of narratives in the Bible suggest that God actively arranges for different horrendous events: sending pestilences, causing floods, killing firstborns, dropping fire from the sky, etc. In Isaiah, we read the words, "Howl ye; for the day of the LORD [is] at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty," and then a few short verses later, all of which describe what kind of destruction is coming from the Almighty, we read: "Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." Here again, it appears God is "behind" these events, and is in fact "using" them to punish the people and "cleanse" the land: "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."

Yeah, judgement can be horrible thing. And most of the time all God has to do is the "Willy Wonka technique" ... "No. Stop. Don't." But folks bring misery and judgement down on their own heads with reckless abandon. I think what you really find hard to accept is one day you are going to stand before this God and give account. If somehow you can either make this God out to be unjust or non existent then you don't have to fear falling into the hands of this Living God. But, as with your wishful thinking about how nice pagans are/were, this too is a false hope.

If God can cause pestilences and natural disasters, and have these things be an expression of his will; if God can "stir up the Medes" in battle and have this be an expression of his will ... it seems likely that the authors of this text also saw the "ravishing of wives" as something also "coming" from the Lord as an expression of his wrath and judgment upon human beings.

I know how you feel about it, but have you even considered what I've already repeated a few times? It doesn't appear you have, because you haven't really addressed it at all.

From this point out, don't feel justified leveling this charge again. Even if you don't wanna believe it, you are being dishonest when you use it. Every time I see it from here on out, I'll remind you of this rebuttal.

P.S. Pagans are hardly all practitioners of human sacrifice.

Who said all were? Bad comeback.
 

Balder

New member
Nineveh, I don't think your rebuttal is that compelling, which is why I'm not taking it more seriously. Maybe you just have to find a more convincing way to present it.

God said he was going to send plagues and pestilences on the people as judgment, and then these things happened (according to some Biblical stories). Did God actively send these things or cause them to happen as expressions of his wrath and means of his judgment?

God said he was going to send a great rain to wipe out evil human beings, and according to the Bible, a great rain did come that drowned every living thing on the planet save for a handful. Did God actively and intentionally cause it to rain, in order to mete out his judgment?

Fire fell out of the sky and consumed cities and crowds of people on different occasions, and the Bible says God did this as a judgment on folks. Did he actually cast down the fire, or cause a volcano to erupt?

God says he Isaiah that he is going to "stir up the Medes." Did he actively do this, as one might "squeeze a rooster," in order to bring about certain results?

God says in Zechariah that he is going to gather nations to battle against Jerusalem, to pillage and rape the people there as a judgment on those of his people who have fallen away from righteousness. Given his track record, don't you think he probably had an active hand in this too?

If things happened as you say, don't you think the passage should use different language if this sort of active, behind-the-scenes involvement is not what is meant? Something more passive? Something more like, "The pagans are going to attack you because they are evil and because they hate me, but I will protect the few of you who are still faithful?" instead of, "I'm going to gather nations to attack you...."?

About pagans and human sacrifice: You are the one who seemed to be identifying all pagans as human sacrificers, since that is the only thing you mentioned when I said pagans have often been more peaceful than Christians. You had to dredge up 3000-year-old examples of human barbarism, as if that sums up the non-Christian world.

Best wishes,

Balder
 

Chileice

New member
Balder said:
Nineveh, I don't think your rebuttal is that compelling, which is why I'm not taking it more seriously. Maybe you just have to find a more convincing way to present it.

God said he was going to send plagues and pestilences on the people as judgment, and then these things happened (according to some Biblical stories). Did God actively send these things or cause them to happen as expressions of his wrath and means of his judgment?

God said he was going to send a great rain to wipe out evil human beings, and according to the Bible, a great rain did come that drowned every living thing on the planet save for a handful. Did God actively and intentionally cause it to rain, in order to mete out his judgment?

Fire fell out of the sky and consumed cities and crowds of people on different occasions, and the Bible says God did this as a judgment on folks. Did he actually cast down the fire, or cause a volcano to erupt?

God says he Isaiah that he is going to "stir up the Medes." Did he actively do this, as one might "squeeze a rooster," in order to bring about certain results?

God says in Zechariah that he is going to gather nations to battle against Jerusalem, to pillage and rape the people there as a judgment on those of his people who have fallen away from righteousness. Given his track record, don't you think he probably had an active hand in this too?

If things happened as you say, don't you think the passage should use different language if this sort of active, behind-the-scenes involvement is not what is meant? Something more passive? Something more like, "The pagans are going to attack you because they are evil and because they hate me, but I will protect the few of you who are still faithful?" instead of, "I'm going to gather nations to attack you...."?

About pagans and human sacrifice: You are the one who seemed to be identifying all pagans as human sacrificers, since that is the only thing you mentioned when I said pagans have often been more peaceful than Christians. You had to dredge up 3000-year-old examples of human barbarism, as if that sums up the non-Christian world.

Best wishes,

Balder
 

Chileice

New member
Balder said:
Nineveh, I don't think your rebuttal is that compelling, which is why I'm not taking it more seriously. Maybe you just have to find a more convincing way to present it.

God said he was going to send plagues and pestilences on the people as judgment, and then these things happened (according to some Biblical stories). Did God actively send these things or cause them to happen as expressions of his wrath and means of his judgment?

God said he was going to send a great rain to wipe out evil human beings, and according to the Bible, a great rain did come that drowned every living thing on the planet save for a handful. Did God actively and intentionally cause it to rain, in order to mete out his judgment?

Fire fell out of the sky and consumed cities and crowds of people on different occasions, and the Bible says God did this as a judgment on folks. Did he actually cast down the fire, or cause a volcano to erupt?

God says he Isaiah that he is going to "stir up the Medes." Did he actively do this, as one might "squeeze a rooster," in order to bring about certain results?

God says in Zechariah that he is going to gather nations to battle against Jerusalem, to pillage and rape the people there as a judgment on those of his people who have fallen away from righteousness. Given his track record, don't you think he probably had an active hand in this too?

If things happened as you say, don't you think the passage should use different language if this sort of active, behind-the-scenes involvement is not what is meant? Something more passive? Something more like, "The pagans are going to attack you because they are evil and because they hate me, but I will protect the few of you who are still faithful?" instead of, "I'm going to gather nations to attack you...."?

About pagans and human sacrifice: You are the one who seemed to be identifying all pagans as human sacrificers, since that is the only thing you mentioned when I said pagans have often been more peaceful than Christians. You had to dredge up 3000-year-old examples of human barbarism, as if that sums up the non-Christian world.

Best wishes,

Balder

I kind of wish you would reply to my rebuttal. I have noticed that you have avoided it. I'm surprized Nin hasn't said something, anything, about it.
 

Balder

New member
Sorry, Chileice, I have actually been meaning to reply to it. You entered the conversation more politely, so your post doesn't stir up the same urgency to respond. You know how it is: unfortunately, it's the contentious posts that attract the most energy.

It seems to me that you are taking a middle ground between my position and Nineveh's. You admit that God allows certain things to happen and develop, using those things as a means of judgment.

The idea that he allows certain calamities to befall, for certain purposes, suggests that he is actively working in history also to prevent other calamities, directing things behind the scenes. Is this how you see it?

In my own arguments, I have not been saying that the people who attack, pillage, and rape other nations are without personal responsibility for their actions. I am just saying that the person who "uses" the actions of evil people for his own purposes also bears some responsibility for what is done, especially if he knows before hand exactly what it is they will do.

Best wishes,

Balder
 
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