Balder On Morals

[allsmiles]

Dopey, if you need to take things out of context and ignore everything else to hang on to your beliefs, there is nothing I can say to you. Now, if you are willing to put it into context and talk about it with some sense, I'll be willing to attempt a meaningful dialog, as I still hold out hope one day that might happen. It's up to you.

I have read the context and I've read your explanation. I don't see how any of it changes anything.

 

[Balder]

Regardless of whether or not the pagans are evil -- even assuming they are -- doesn't God still say he is going to use these people and knowingly send them to rape the women of Jerusalem as part of his judgment against her?

 

[Nineveh]

Regardless of whether or not the pagans are evil -- even assuming they are -- doesn't God still say he is going to use these people and knowingly send them to rape the women of Jerusalem as part of his judgment against her?

In this case (Zac/Rev) we are talking about really bent pagans because they are getting their behinds whipped by God whom they can not act against.

 

[Nineveh]

I have read the context and I've read your explanation. I don't see how any of it changes anything.

Ok. Then there isn't anything I can help you with.

 

[allsmiles]

Regardless of whether or not the pagans are evil -- even assuming they are -- doesn't God still say he is going to use these people and knowingly send them to rape the women of Jerusalem as part of his judgment against her?

For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;

This is the part where Yahweh/El takes responsibility for the ensuing horrors.

The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

These are the ensuing horrors, the results of Yahweh/El's decision to gather the nations to battle against Jerusalem.

Broadening the context doesn't negate this at all.

"Your honor, I didn't pull the trigger, the hitman I hired did. I'm innocent!"

:chuckle:

 

[Nineveh]

dopey,
If it makes you feel better, and stops you from spamming this thread with your ignorant nonsense, "you win". Now, you should feel justified in your victory to take your spam to another thread

And in case the "polite" way didn't make it through your purple haze, let me be more blunt, if you can't offer more than out of context cut-n-paste for your argument, I'm only going to delete 1 more post off this thread, if I have to remove more than that, I'll remove you for a few days.

 

[Balder]

Nineveh, does the passage say that God is going to send judgment against Jerusalem? Isn't he warning his people that he is going to punish them, before he turns around and fights for them?

 

[Nineveh]

Nineveh, does the passage say that God is going to send judgment against Jerusalem? Isn't he warning his people that he is going to punish them, before he turns around and fights for them?

God's judgement is laid out in Rev, it's poured out on the world. God fortells of the actions of the pagans in retaliation of those judgements, He tells Israel to flee. The best you can accuse God of in this is being Just. How the pagans strike out is on their own heads, they could repent but some folks hearts are hard and they refuse. No different than today really, but God's direct punishments poured out will be really hard to ignore.

 

[Balder]

The language seems pretty active and direct: He is saying he is going to gather nations against Jerusalem and that they will do certain things to Jerusalem, and this is to be regarded as His judgment against them.

I think you're wiggling out of that. Or trying.

 

[Nineveh]

The language seems pretty active and direct: He is saying he is going to gather nations against Jerusalem and that they will do certain things to Jerusalem, and this is to be regarded as His judgment against them.

The language? You mean in those few sentences dopey posted? Or do you mean in the whole idea of what is going on?

I think you're wiggling out of that. Or trying.

And I don't think you've read one word outside dopey's sentence because you can't seem to address the context on the whole.

So what's this going to be balder? A dialog or a back and forth of your accusations only supported by out of context sentences and me pointing back to context with every reply? Fess up now, let's not waste our time.

 

[Balder]

Well, the few sentences in question have meaning, and the context doesn't appear (to me) to change the meaning from how I read it in the first place: God is sending people against Jerusalem as judgment, and he says that these people will do things (rape, kill, etc).

Do you deny that the correct way to read this passage is that God is first giving judment against Jerusalem, in the form of pillaging and raping invaders, and then stepping in to help her? (I just read this interpretation in a Christian Bible commentary online).

***

If you have a gang of convicted serial rapists and killers and you arrange for them to be sent to a school as judgment against it for its atheistic curriculum, and those criminals kill and rape many people in the school, who is responsible? The criminals have direct responsibility, certainly. But how about the person who knowingly sent them there for the express purpose of "judgment"? Any responsibility for that person as well?

 

[Lighthouse]

Lighthouse, since you called me a liar (in your neg rep comment), I really would be interested in your interpretation of the passage Allsmiles quoted. I think you owe me an apology....

The one you quoted?

Well, I read it, and I see no indication that God was going to arrange for that to happen. Only that He knew it was going to happen. What do you think I am, a Calvinist?

 

[Balder]

That's interesting, Lighthouse. No indication that God is involved directly in this? What does the following sentence mean to you:

"For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;..."?

 

[Nineveh]

Well, the few sentences in question have meaning, and the context doesn't appear (to me) to change the meaning from how I read it in the first place: God is sending people against Jerusalem as judgment, and he says that these people will do things (rape, kill, etc).

Be honest balder, you couldn't even be bothered to gain context could you? You trotted off to some man written bit you found on some website somewhere instead of simply reading Rev. It was you that wanted to talk about Zac first, but you just can't be bothered to do the homework it takes to really address it. What a waste.

If you ever wondered why I kept telling you to do a search for the last times you brought out this "charge" against God, this is why. It's a waste of time.

Do you deny that the correct way to read this passage is that God is first giving judment against Jerusalem, in the form of pillaging and raping invaders, and then stepping in to help her? (I just read this interpretation in a Christian Bible commentary online).

I tried to go into this with you but it flew right over your head apparently. You have the option to question what I have already said so you can try to understand, or you can stick to your guns trying to support your accusation. The former might be worth a dialog, the latter is worth as much time as it takes you to cut and paste from your last two replies.

If you have a gang of convicted serial rapists and killers and you arrange for them to be sent to a school as judgment against it for its atheistic curriculum, and those criminals kill and rape many people in the school, who is responsible? The criminals have direct responsibility, certainly. But how about the person who knowingly sent them there for the express purpose of "judgment"? Any responsibility for that person as well?

Wow. Now for a bit of understanding....

Men hate God, God's patience won't last forever and He will pour out His wrath. God also knows people who are associated with Him will get a lot of grief from those that hate Him. He tells them to flee the pagans who will at first seek their favor and later seek their blood. How does God "draw" these pagans against Israel? Does He "possess" them? No. Did He "predestine" all this "from before the foundation of the world"? No. Does He write down some instructions for them? No. Does He send them some subliminal messages during Friday Night Football? No. He judges them, and they want to fight back.

Before you reply again, at least take the time to read some context or do us both a favor and don't bother. I'd really like to bookmark this thread as it's handy and current, for the next time this silly accusation is trotted out.

 

[Balder]

Okay, Nineveh, although I did read all of the passages you quoted, this time I went back and read several chapters before and after Zechariah 14. Something is not clear to me: At the end of Zechariah 13, is God saying he is going to destroy two thirds of his own people (e.g., Jews or Christians, not pagans), saving one third to be purified?

 

[Nineveh]

Okay, Nineveh, although I did read all of the passages you quoted, this time I went back and read several chapters before and after Zechariah 14.

Thank you for being honest about it. You read several chapters after Zac 14?

Did you read Rev yet?

Something is not clear to me: At the end of Zechariah 13, is God saying he is going to destroy two thirds of his own people (e.g., Jews or Christians, not pagans), saving one third to be purified?

Since it appears you insist we waste time instead of looking at this in context, I'm just going to cut and paste my last reply on this point:

"So what are we really seeing in all this? That once again Israel turned from God, so He turned from them, in so doing the enemies of Israel overpowered them and basically had their way with them." Post 4.

 

[Granite]

That's interesting, Lighthouse. No indication that God is involved directly in this? What does the following sentence mean to you:

"For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;..."?

Two options only: he directed it himself or he passively let it happen. That's it.

 

[allsmiles]

The one you quoted?

Well, I read it, and I see no indication that God was going to arrange for that to happen. Only that He knew it was going to happen. What do you think I am, a Calvinist?

I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

No Lighthouse, this is going well beyond knowing that it was going to happen. He says he is going to gather the nations together with the express purpose of fighting against Jerusalem. Yahweh/El is explicit in what the result of his decision is going to be. The city will be captured and all that entails, including the rape of the women of Jerusalem.

The OT god is very specific in what the particular judgements were going to be and he had seemingly no problem taking responsibility for the gathering of all the nations, why do you have a problem with it if he doesn't?

 

[Balder]

It's clear to me now, Nineveh. God was displeased with Israel and turned from it, allowing its inhabitants to be raped and killed by enemy nations as an expression of his judgment against it.

Before I do anything else you ask me to, I am going to ask you to just explain your understanding of the sentence we have been discussing. You insist that the context demands that we read it in a particular way, but it seems you are trying to get it to be less actively worded, and less directly attributed to God's activity and will, than it actually is. Why did God say, "For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem" if He didn't mean that?

If you do not answer this directly, I will consider YOU to be wasting my time.

 

[allsmiles]

For the sake of being thorough I went back and double checked the context Nineveh is so insistent about. I found that broadening the context actually backfires drastically for Nineveh and Lighthouse's argument.

Zechariah:

4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.

So your god has feet and legs?

12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
13 It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the LORD will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;
14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.
15 Such also shall be the plague
On the horse and the mule,
On the camel and the donkey,
And on all the cattle that will be in those camps.
So shall this plague be.

Your god has little to no problem taking responsibility for the situation.

This is from 2nd Kings 17:

20 And the LORD rejected all the descendants of Israel, afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of plunderers, until He had cast them from His sight. 21 For He tore Israel from the house of David, and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king.

Again, your god has no problem taking responsibility for the situation.

Aside from your god orchestrating not only the devastation against Jerusalem and the destruction of the pagans, this is the consistent theme I was able to find throughout the context:

36 but the LORD, who brought you up from the land of Egypt with great power and an outstretched arm, Him you shall fear

39 But the LORD your God you shall fear