Balder On Morals

[Balder]

Split from this thread - Nineveh


And they DO think it's fine for people to run toddlers through with swords on occasion.

 

[mighty_duck]

And they DO think it's fine for people to run toddlers through with swords on occasion.

It's strange how easily they can justify killing of innocents in a lot of different scenarios, but rape is never justified. Almost as though human life is less sacred than sexual crimes.
These same people will call Muslims who murder for family honor barbarians.

 

[Balder]

It's strange how easily they can justify killing of innocents in a lot of different scenarios, but rape is never justified. Almost as though human life is less sacred than sexual crimes.
These same people will call Muslims who murder for family honor barbarians.

I believe there are places in the Bible where "God" says he's going to arrange for the raping of women, as part of his punishment upon those who have displeased him...

 

[Lighthouse]

I believe there are places in the Bible where "God" says he's going to arrange for the raping of women, as part of his punishment upon those who have displeased him...

Really? Can you back that up, ya know, with a verse or anything?

 

[allsmiles]

I'm looking for it right now Lighthouse.

Let's see... Hosea 13:16?
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open."

Nope, that's not it... Nice example of abortion in the Bible however.

Zechariah 14:1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.

2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

There ya go :thumb:

Smoke that in your pipe and stick it Lighthouse.

 

[Freedomcry]

I'm looking for it right now Lighthouse.

Let's see... Hosea 13:16?
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open."

Nope, that's not it...

Zechariah 14:1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.

2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

There ya go :thumb:

Ohhh, triple BURN!

 

[allsmiles]

Freedomcry, wanna see something incredible?

Go to www.bible.com.

Click on bible resources, click on bible search, click on keyword search and enter the word woman. The cruelty and outright misogyny throughout the course of the Bible is mind boggling.

 

[Balder]

I'm looking for it right now Lighthouse.

Let's see... Hosea 13:16?
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open."

Nope, that's not it... Nice example of abortion in the Bible however.

Zechariah 14:1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.

2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

There ya go :thumb:

Smoke that in your pipe and stick it Lighthouse.

Thank you, Allsmiles! You saved me from having to do the work that Lighthouse can't be bothered to do in his own sacred book!

 

[Balder]

I should add that this thread is mistitled, Nineveh. It says little about my views on morality. It only deals, in small part, with those things that you and others here like to justify in the name of morality, and which I unreservedly condemn.

 

[allsmiles]

Bump for the sake of my favorite fugly, Lighthouse.

 

[Balder]

Lighthouse, since you called me a liar (in your neg rep comment), I really would be interested in your interpretation of the passage Allsmiles quoted. I think you owe me an apology....

 

[Nineveh]

I should add that this thread is mistitled, Nineveh.

Sorry, I was in a hurry and it came from a thread on morals. That happens sometimes when you go off topic, someone else gets to title the split thread.

Ok, now to the "examples" dopey posted. Let's look at Hosea first, only this time with a little context.

When Ephraim spoke, trembling,
He exalted himself in Israel;
But when he offended through Baal worship, he died.
2 Now they sin more and more,
And have made for themselves molded images,
Idols of their silver, according to their skill;
All of it is the work of craftsmen.
They say of them,

“ Let the men who sacrifice[a] kiss the calves!”
3 Therefore they shall be like the morning cloud
And like the early dew that passes away,
Like chaff blown off from a threshing floor
And like smoke from a chimney.
4 “ Yet I am the LORD your God
Ever since the land of Egypt,
And you shall know no God but Me;
For there is no savior besides Me.
5 I knew you in the wilderness,
In the land of great drought.
6 When they had pasture, they were filled;
They were filled and their heart was exalted;
Therefore they forgot Me.
7 “ So I will be to them like a lion;
Like a leopard by the road I will lurk;
8 I will meet them like a bear deprived of her cubs;
I will tear open their rib cage,
And there I will devour them like a lion.
The wild beast shall tear them.
9 “ O Israel, you are destroyed,
But your help[c]is from Me.
10 I will be your King;[d]
Where is any other,
That he may save you in all your cities?
And your judges to whom you said,

‘ Give me a king and princes’?
11 I gave you a king in My anger,
And took him away in My wrath.
12 “ The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up;
His sin is stored up.
13 The sorrows of a woman in childbirth shall come upon him.
He is an unwise son,
For he should not stay long where children are born.
14 “ I will ransom them from the power of the grave;[e]
I will redeem them from death.
O Death, I will be your plagues![f]
O Grave,[g] I will be your destruction![h]
Pity is hidden from My eyes.”
15 Though he is fruitful among his brethren,
An east wind shall come;
The wind of the LORD shall come up from the wilderness.
Then his spring shall become dry,
And his fountain shall be dried up.
He shall plunder the treasury of every desirable prize.
16 Samaria is held guilty,[ i ]
For she has rebelled against her God.
They shall fall by the sword,
Their infants shall be dashed in pieces,
And their women with child ripped open.
14
1 O Israel, return to the LORD your God,
For you have stumbled because of your iniquity;
2 Take words with you,
And return to the LORD.
Say to Him,

“ Take away all iniquity;
Receive us graciously,
For we will offer the sacrifices[a] of our lips.
3 Assyria shall not save us,
We will not ride on horses,
Nor will we say anymore to the work of our hands, ‘You are our gods.’
For in You the fatherless finds mercy.”
4 “ I will heal their backsliding,
I will love them freely,
For My anger has turned away from him.
5 I will be like the dew to Israel;
He shall grow like the lily,
And lengthen his roots like Lebanon.
6 His branches shall spread;
His beauty shall be like an olive tree,
And his fragrance like Lebanon.
7 Those who dwell under his shadow shall return;
They shall be revived like grain,
And grow like a vine.
Their scentshall be like the wine of Lebanon.
8 “ Ephraim shall say, ‘What have I to do anymore with idols?’
I have heard and observed him.
I am like a green cypress tree;
Your fruit is found in Me.”
9 Who is wise?
Let him understand these things.
Who is prudent?
Let him know them.
For the ways of the LORD are right;
The righteous walk in them,
But transgressors stumble in them.

Then we have 2 Kings 17 that gives us a bit more insight into the situation:

1 In the twelfth year of Ahaz king of Judah, Hoshea the son of Elah became king of Israel in Samaria, and he reigned nine years. 2 And he did evil in the sight of the LORD, but not as the kings of Israel who were before him. 3 Shalmaneser king of Assyria came up against him; and Hoshea became his vassal, and paid him tribute money. 4 And the king of Assyria uncovered a conspiracy by Hoshea; for he had sent messengers to So, king of Egypt, and brought no tribute to the king of Assyria, as he had done year by year. Therefore the king of Assyria shut him up, and bound him in prison.
Israel Carried Captive to Assyria

5 Now the king of Assyria went throughout all the land, and went up to Samaria and besieged it for three years. 6 In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Assyria took Samaria and carried Israel away to Assyria, and placed them in Halah and by the Habor, the River of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.
7 For so it was that the children of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, who had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and they had feared other gods, 8 and had walked in the statutes of the nations whom the LORD had cast out from before the children of Israel, and of the kings of Israel, which they had made. 9 Also the children of Israel secretly did against the LORD their God things that were not right, and they built for themselves high places in all their cities, from watchtower to fortified city. 10 They set up for themselves sacred pillars and wooden images[a] on every high hill and under every green tree. 11 There they burned incense on all the high places, like the nations whom the LORD had carried away before them; and they did wicked things to provoke the LORD to anger, 12 for they served idols, of which the LORD had said to them, “You shall not do this thing.”
13 Yet the LORD testified against Israel and against Judah, by all of His prophets, every seer, saying, “Turn from your evil ways, and keep My commandments and My statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by My servants the prophets.” 14 Nevertheless they would not hear, but stiffened their necks, like the necks of their fathers, who did not believe in the LORD their God. 15 And they rejected His statutes and His covenant that He had made with their fathers, and His testimonies which He had testified against them; they followed idols, became idolaters, and went after the nations who were all around them, concerning whom the LORD had charged them that they should not do like them. 16 So they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, made for themselves a molded image and two calves, made a wooden image and worshiped all the host of heaven, and served Baal. 17 And they caused their sons and daughters to pass through the fire, practiced witchcraft and soothsaying, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger. 18 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them from His sight; there was none left but the tribe of Judah alone.
19 Also Judah did not keep the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made. 20 And the LORD rejected all the descendants of Israel, afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of plunderers, until He had cast them from His sight. 21 For He tore Israel from the house of David, and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king. Then Jeroboam drove Israel from following the LORD, and made them commit a great sin. 22 For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they did not depart from them, 23 until the LORD removed Israel out of His sight, as He had said by all His servants the prophets. So Israel was carried away from their own land to Assyria, as it is to this day.
Assyria Resettles Samaria

24 Then the king of Assyria brought people from Babylon, Cuthah, Ava, Hamath, and from Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead of the children of Israel; and they took possession of Samaria and dwelt in its cities. 25 And it was so, at the beginning of their dwelling there, that they did not fear the LORD; therefore the LORD sent lions among them, which killed some of them. 26 So they spoke to the king of Assyria, saying, “The nations whom you have removed and placed in the cities of Samaria do not know the rituals of the God of the land; therefore He has sent lions among them, and indeed, they are killing them because they do not know the rituals of the God of the land.” 27 Then the king of Assyria commanded, saying, “Send there one of the priests whom you brought from there; let him go and dwell there, and let him teach them the rituals of the God of the land.” 28 Then one of the priests whom they had carried away from Samaria came and dwelt in Bethel, and taught them how they should fear the LORD.
29 However every nation continued to make gods of its own, and put them in the shrines on the high places which the Samaritans had made, every nation in the cities where they dwelt. 30 The men of Babylon made Succoth Benoth, the men of Cuth made Nergal, the men of Hamath made Ashima, 31 and the Avites made Nibhaz and Tartak; and the Sepharvites burned their children in fire to Adrammelech and Anammelech, the gods of Sepharvaim. 32 So they feared the LORD, and from every class they appointed for themselves priests of the high places, who sacrificed for them in the shrines of the high places. 33 They feared the LORD, yet served their own gods—according to the rituals of the nations from among whom they were carried away.
34 To this day they continue practicing the former rituals; they do not fear the LORD, nor do they follow their statutes or their ordinances, or the law and commandment which the LORD had commanded the children of Jacob, whom He named Israel, 35 with whom the LORD had made a covenant and charged them, saying: “You shall not fear other gods, nor bow down to them nor serve them nor sacrifice to them; 36 but the LORD, who brought you up from the land of Egypt with great power and an outstretched arm, Him you shall fear, Him you shall worship, and to Him you shall offer sacrifice. 37 And the statutes, the ordinances, the law, and the commandment which He wrote for you, you shall be careful to observe forever; you shall not fear other gods. 38 And the covenant that I have made with you, you shall not forget, nor shall you fear other gods. 39 But the LORD your God you shall fear; and He will deliver you from the hand of all your enemies.” 40 However they did not obey, but they followed their former rituals. 41 So these nations feared the LORD, yet served their carved images; also their children and their children’s children have continued doing as their fathers did, even to this day.

So what are we really seeing in all this? That once again Israel turned from God, so He turned from them, in so doing the enemies of Israel overpowered them and basically had their way with them. What you would love to rip out of context to try to paint the Creator God as base as evil men, turns out to damn the pagans once again, for it was the hands of Isreal's enemies that inflicted the evils you accuse God of "condoning". Unless of course you have a "calvie" bent and believe God predestined all this from before the foundation of the world. I'm sure the Assyrians were proud to be the "nation builder" they were.

 

[Balder]

Hi, Nineveh, what about the quote from Zechariah 14? It appears that, as a judgment against His people, God is "gathering up nations" to attack Jerusalem and rape its women. Is that not how you read it?

Thanks,

Balder

 

[Nineveh]

Hi, Nineveh, what about the quote from Zechariah 14? It appears that, as a judgment against His people, God is "gathering up nations" to attack Jerusalem and rape its women. Is that not how you read it?

Thanks,

Balder

Are we done with Hosea so soon? Ready to move to Zechariah?

 

[Balder]

No, it's not that. I thought the main point of Allsmile's post was Zechariah... And that's the one I was thinking of when I wrote my comment on the other thread. I can talk about Hosea if you like, but it wasn't the passage I was thinking of.

 

[Nineveh]

No, it's not that. I thought the main point of Allsmile's post was Zechariah... And that's the one I was thinking of when I wrote my comment on the other thread. I can talk about Hosea if you like, but it wasn't the passage I was thinking of.

Well, should we wait then? I'd rather take one at a time

 

[Balder]

Okay, I prefer Zechariah first! That's the meatiest one. I wasn't even thinking of Hosea.

If you'd rather not, I understand.

 

[Nineveh]

Okay, I prefer Zechariah first! That's the meatiest one. I wasn't even thinking of Hosea.

If you'd rather not, I understand.

I was taking them in order I prefered to save the easiest to last So, like with Hosea, let's add a little context to dopey's one sentence.

The Day of the LORD
1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Makinga very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.[a]
6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—

“ The LORD is one,”
And His name one.

10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem[c] shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.
11 The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
13 It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the LORD will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;
14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.
15 Such also shall be the plague
On the horse and the mule,
On the camel and the donkey,
And on all the cattle that will be in those camps.
So shall this plague be.
The Nations Worship the King

16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts.[d] Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

For even more detail of the time Zechariah is speaking of, you can start reading in Revelation at chapter 6. There is a bit too much for me to post from that book.

Zechariah is talking about the same time frame as Daniel and Revelation. Is God really forcing the pagans to come battle against Him and His people? No. Will these pagans be any "nicer" than say... the ones form Assyria Hosea spoke of? Why should we expect that? Those that hate God won't hate Him less during Jacob's Trouble, they will hate Him more, they are being judged and harshly. So once again we find the evil in the hands of the pagans, just like in Hosea.

 

[allsmiles]

I was taking them in order I prefered to save the easiest to last So, like with Hosea, let's add a little context to dopey's one sentence.

For even more detail of the time Zechariah is speaking of, you can start reading in Revelation at chapter 6. There is a bit too much for me to post from that book.

Zechariah is talking about the same time frame as Daniel and Revelation. Is God really forcing the pagans to come battle against Him and His people? No. Will these pagans be any "nicer" than say... the ones form Assyria Hosea spoke of? Why should we expect that? Those that hate God won't hate Him less during Jacob's Trouble, they will hate Him more, they are being judged and harshly. So once again we find the evil in the hands of the pagans, just like in Hosea.

For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Sounds unequivocal to me Nineveh. Your interpretation doesn't fit with what the text says no matter how much of it you quote.

 

[Nineveh]

Sounds unequivocal to me Nineveh. Your interpretation doesn't fit with what the text says no matter how much of it you quote.

Dopey, if you need to take things out of context and ignore everything else to hang on to your beliefs, there is nothing I can say to you. Now, if you are willing to put it into context and talk about it with some sense, I'll be willing to attempt a meaningful dialog, as I still hold out hope one day that might happen. It's up to you.