As do I.
Everyone is talking about good works, but no one is saying what they think they are or what we mean by them.
I am not talking about helping old ladies across the street in order to earn salvation, so why say I am?
Attn: godrulz, AMR and Sozo!
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As do I.
Everyone is talking about good works, but no one is saying what they think they are or what we mean by them.
I am not talking about helping old ladies across the street in order to earn salvation, so why say I am?
Sozo
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No, you have said over and over again that it is obedience to the revealed Law of God.
You are preaching the same false gospel that was being preached to the Galatians, and Paul says to let you be eternally damned for it.
Paul is right!
Galatian Judaizer heresy was faith + self-righteous works/legalisms for initial justification.
My view, and your view, is that justification is by grace through faith alone apart from works. Since we both deny being antinomians, we agree that salvation includes loving God and others because He first loved us and bears the fruit of love and service in our lives, even as Jesus and Paul did. If not killing people, not committing adultery, not stealing, etc. are things that we both avoid subsequent to salvation, then it is not wrong to say we are loving and obeying God and His unchanging Law based on His character in all generations, born again or not (even good atheists do this and are not saved, so I am not the one confusing the relationship between faith and works...straw man or stupidity on your part).
Sozo
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FALSE!
The Galatians were already believers. They were already saved, and the Judaizers (like you), were adding to the gospel with a different gospel that they having been made perfect by the Spirit are now to perfect themselves by the works of the Law.
You cannot spin your way out of your demonic message to the Body of Christ.
You are a legalist, with a false gospel. You are to be accursed.
It was a warning to the saved Galatians to not be seduced by this false gospel, as some were. This contradicts your OSAS ideas, but it is faithful to the context and historical background (cf. Heb. 6:4-6 are you the guy who agrees with Berkhouwer on this?).
Sozo
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That contradicts your last statement...
It also contradicts what Paul says...
"Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?"
Ask Mr. Religion
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Did you see my post? Do you agree or disagree?
Mr. 5020
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I thought I was pretty clear. Feel free to PM me with any other questions.
I thought the fruit was laid out in Galatians 5. "Faith" is only one of them.What is the fruit? Faith or works?
Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Mr. 5020
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I'm trying desperately hard to understand you. I really am. I've read this post dozens of times since last night.
I agree that we are not under the law. I agree that we are saved by grace through faith alone.
Am I understanding you (in all of the dialog with me, not just this post, necessarily) that while works are not required for salvation, Christians will do good works, because they are Christians?
Sozo
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There are two kinds of works...
Those that God has done and is doing in you.
For example, these would include:
He has cleansed you from all unrighteousness. He has made you holy, righteous, blameless. He has sanctified you (set you apart from the law of sin and death, and unto Himself where there is life and peace). He has set you free from the Law, from wrath, from sin, and from death. He has given you His Spirit; His very life. We are sons of the living God; Saints! You are complete in Him; Perpetually perfected. He is now renewing our minds with the truth of who we are in Christ. God is working in our hearts to know all those things that He has freely given us in Him. Through His Spirit He pours out His fruit in our hearts. We receive ALL of His love, joy, peace, kindness, gentleness, goodness, patience. He is faithful towards us. He is in control of who He is, and who we are in Him.
Those are some of the good works that God has done and is doing that accompany our salvation. They have nothing to do with anything we have done or will do. They are His works, and we just walk in them.
Now, there are good works that we may do in this life that accompany what God has done and is doing in us, but they are no one's business but God's, and the person with whom God is at work.
For the most part, what I see being done, is that legalistic Christians who "say" that they are no longer under the Law (and some who say they are), are looking at one another's behavior to see if it lines up with the Law and if not they say they have no fruit. They are also demanding that people love perfectly, or are perfectly patient, or kind, etc. It is far more stringent than the Law that God gave to Moses and an even heavier yoke on people's backs to perform at this new standard. They demand it of others, without seeing that they themselves fall short.
If you decide to go to the mission field, it makes your work no better or worse than the guy who goes to work making pizzas. How and where God works in men is his business. If a brother gets drunk and thrown in jail, it makes you no better or worse than if you are the brother who leads worship at church on Sunday. It's far more unprofitable for the guy who got drunk, but God is the one who is at work in both. It's none of your business, unless he is the guy who plays the organ while you lead worship, then it is a matter of responsibilty between him and you, but not between him and God. Those who are in Christ are all on the same level with God.
elected4ever
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That is correct. Faith is the fruit of the spirit. One must be of the spirit to have faith. If you have faith then your works will demonstrate the faith that is in you. Now faith will not produce the same work but will produce according to the gift of faith that has been received. That is why we all don't do the same thing. God gives a measure of faith as He wills, not as we will that the body may fit together as a whole. To require that I produce the same work as you is unrealistic. That is why the church becomes dis functional. We often try to cast each other in our own image. We often feel uncomfortable around those that don't act like we do.
This was a point and warning to those who were being seduced, but not given over, to the heresy. Judaizers were condemned as false, while believers who were not Judaizers were being warned that some were compromising and would end up in the wrong boat if they persisted in this negative influence and compromise.
Are you saying faith and subsequent works are gifts, passive, monergistic, or just faith? I see a cooperative, volitional, mental element also. God does not make us believe in a causative way, nor does the things we do in His name, for His glory, and the good of others have no element of action, motive, obedience on our part. We are not puppets. Some believers are good stewards and servants, while others are spectators or couch potatos, not living up to God's intention for their lives after being redeemed.
Works is not a dirty word. God does 'works'; Jesus and Paul did works...because they had His life in relationship, not in order to merit salvation or relationship.
I commit to my wife and family in covenant and faith, but I serve them with my mind, heart, hands, time, energy, will. This flows out of relationship, not as a means to start or keep the relationship.
I think I agree with the gist of what you say, but not if it is monergistic or passive only.
We love because He first loved us, but it is our love nonetheless.
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What was unclear about the post?
Philippians 2:13
for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
What does Philippians 2:13 say? Fortunately the commentary on the verse above is given by Ephesians 2:10:
Ephesians 2:10
For we {believers} are his {God’s} workmanship {handiwork, masterpiece}, {believers} created {a work only God does} in Christ Jesus {raised up in Christ - Eph. 2:6-7} for good works, {works} which God prepared beforehand {a planned blueprint of works for believers}, that we {believers} should walk in {do} them {works}.
Translation:
A believer is God’s masterpiece, who has been made a new creation in Christ for good works; works which God planned from eternity that the believer would do.
What God plans from eternity must happen, for it is God who works the believer’s willing and working (Philippians 2:13).
You argue that there is some choice in the matter of works, for you deny the perseverance of the saints. You claim a freedom to do exactly the opposite from what the Scriptures (e.g., see above) clearly state. You fail to realize that you have no intellectual, physical, or spiritual freedom. You cannot will your IQ to increase 30 points, you cannot will yourself to run a mile in two minutes, nor can you will yourself to not do good works if you are the ‘believer’ spoken of in the passages above and anywhere else in Scripture.
The work that God does for the believer is the believer, a masterpiece of God in Christ.
The Scriptures clearly refute your notions of performing according to your own will what God says He will do through you. You have no spiritual choice in the matter if you are a believer. The fact that you deny this is why you are regularly accused of being a Godless unbeliever. Do you understand this now?
Determinism...yuck...are you saying that levels of maturity, growth, fruit or strictly God-based with no cooperative issue on our part? Are you saying that a believer who is immoral is doing so because God is giving them the desire to sin? Are you saying that the one who obeys the Word and retains purity does so only because God makes it so? Are you saying issues of stewardship, sanctification, works, etc. are unilateral?
We have different worldviews, so I am not understanding what you are saying. Your verses are true, but so is 2 Cor. 7:1; I Peter 1:13-16; 2 Peter 1:3 ff., etc.
God works in us, to be sure, but grace is not irresistible. If your soft or hard determinism conflicts with relational, biblical theism, I must reject your extra/contrabiblical view that could lead one to become like Beloved, Zman, etc.
We have different worldviews, so I am not understanding what you are saying. Your verses are true, but so is 2 Cor. 7:1; I Peter 1:13-16; 2 Peter 1:3 ff., etc.
God works in us, to be sure, but grace is not irresistible. If your soft or hard determinism conflicts with relational, biblical theism, I must reject your extra/contrabiblical view that could lead one to become like Beloved, Zman, etc.
CONTINUED FAITH is NOT a work. The Greek present tense for faith shows that it is to be continuous, not past tense only. Trusting Christ initially is no more a work than continuing to trust Him (vs renounce) until death. You were married, loved the person, and continued to love the person. This is relationship and trust, not a work to maintain initial love and trust. If you later hate the person and divorce them, the relationship ceases, and you no longer love or trust them. This has nothing to do with works that you do because you love someone or do not do because you no longer have anything to do with them.
The problem is that you think faith can discontinue.
Mystery
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You still lack a biblical understanding of what salvation is. Your comparison is weak and useless. We are not married to Jesus. Jesus is our life. We are His Body.
No Jesus, No you. If you could be separated from Jesus, you would cease to exist.
Faith vs unbelief, not works, determines destiny. Jesus is the one who said we need to remain and abide in Him. If we don't, we are cut off and burned, as it were. Perseverance is a biblical theme, but relates to continued faith, not works in any sense.
There is a difference between struggling in our faith and a defiant rejection of Christ and His finished work in a return to godless, selfish rebellion (apostasy; falling away). Justification leads to glorification IF we do not reject Him.
Just as initial justification has a conditional element (repentant faith...universalism is not true just because Jesus died), so ultimate glorification is conditional on being in Him (I Jn. 5:11-13), not apart from Him as we were before belief (i.e. unbelief, by definition).
Biblical faith includes continuance in the faith, not a reversion to unbelief. This has nothing to do with works (straw man on your part) which only affect rewards subsequent to being saved (an unbelievers works are not rewarded and they die for their own sins).
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