Attn: godrulz, AMR and Sozo!

[Mr. 5020]

Faith is the evidence that a person is saved, not works. When people teach that works are the evidence, then if the works are not there, then you are not saved. Therefore, for them, works are the proof, not faith in Christ. However, it is the work of God in Christ that saves us, if we believe in Him. We are to walk by faith in Jesus, not put confidence in the works of the flesh. God is at work in us, but that is His business, not yours, and certainly not the business of self-righteous pigs like William (godrulz).

I suppose I am confused.

You do not think that Christians should bear fruit?

 

[godrulz]

So, you would say that works are simply proof of salvation then, right?

The thief on the cross went to paradise without works as proof.

Works are the normative fruit of a life lived for God and others after one is saved. Jesus and the disciples did much good because they were in relationship with the loving Father, not in order to get saved.

Many false religions do more works than Christians and are not saved.

Faith vs unbelief (GWT judgment of the lost) determines destiny.

Works determines degree of rewards or loss (I Cor. 3) at the Bema Seat of Christ for believers. The exact nature of these rewards is speculative.

 

[Lighthouse]

Yes, this is the one proof text of my first point about initial setting apart using past tense. Now, you must look up dozens or hundreds of other verses that use the word or root words and note the different verb tenses and contexts that develop the other theme of an ongoing, practical work of the Spirit from conversion to death or Second Coming.

2 Peter 1:3-11; I Peter 1:13-16; 2 Cor. 7:1; Rom. 6-8; Eph. 4-6, Heb. 6, etc. shed some light on this (expository dictionaries of sanctify, sanctified, etc. will show your verse is only one e.g. among a semantical range of meanings for this concept/word). This is the danger of building doctrines on one proof text instead of all relevant verses in context.

In the book on sanctification (5 views) I have mentioned, the Calvinists, Reformed, Arminian, Pentecostal, Augustinian-dispensational, Keswickian, etc. views did not dispute the biblical evidence for positional and practical/progresive sanctification.

This is the danger of Bob George's myopic view boiling everything down to 'life' initially without fleshing out the rest of the story.

I am perfect, for He has made me Perfect. And I am separated unto Him [sanctified], period. My flesh will never be. When I have a glorified body it will be a new body. But my spirit is already a new creation.

 

[godrulz]

Faith is the evidence that a person is saved, not works. When people teach that works are the evidence, then if the works are not there, then you are not saved. Therefore, for them, works are the proof, not faith in Christ. However, it is the work of God in Christ that saves us, if we believe in Him. We are to walk by faith in Jesus, not put confidence in the works of the flesh. God is at work in us, but that is His business, not yours, and certainly not the business of self-righteous pigs like William (godrulz).

I understand Eph. 2:10, which contradicts your false assessment of my true beliefs. We are God's 'poem' (in the Greek).

 

[Mr. 5020]

The thief on the cross went to paradise without works as proof.

Works are the normative fruit of a life lived for God and others after one is saved. Jesus and the disciples did much good because they were in relationship with the loving Father, not in order to get saved.

Many false religions do more works than Christians and are not saved.

Faith vs unbelief (GWT judgment of the lost) determines destiny.

Works determines degree of rewards or loss (I Cor. 3) at the Bema Seat of Christ for believers. The exact nature of these rewards is speculative.

What about this does Sozo disagree with?

 

[Sozo]

I suppose I am confused.

You do not think that Christians should bear fruit?

Bear it, yes, and we do. Produce it, no. We bear the fruit that Christ has produced in us by the work of God.

We walk by faith in Christ. Period. Anything else is a false gospel of self-righteousness.

 

[Mr. 5020]

Bear it, yes, and we do. Produce it, no. We bear the fruit that Christ has produced in us by the work of God.

We walk by faith in Christ. Period. Anything else is a false gospel of self-righteousness.

What if somebody claims to be a Christian but is not bearing fruit?

 

[Sozo]

What if somebody claims to be a Christian but is not bearing fruit?

They are not a Christian. godrulz is a perfect example. He does not believe the gospel. He denies the sufficiency of the cross. He still looks to the Law to be pleasing to God. God has not done any work in godrulz. He does not bear the fruit that he walks by faith in Jesus, but still trusts in the Law and his works.

What do you think the "fruit" is that we are supposed to "bear", and what reference do you have to support your claim?

 

[Mr. 5020]

They are not a Christian. godrulz is a perfect example. He does not believe the gospel. He denies the sufficiency of the cross. He still looks to the Law to be pleasing to God. God has not done any work in godrulz. He does not bear the fruit that he walks by faith in Jesus, but still trusts in the Law and his works.

So, then, are you saying that the fruit is physical evidence of the person's salvation?

What do you think the "fruit" is that we are supposed to "bear", and what reference do you have to support your claim?

I don't understand. What claim am I making?

 

[Lighthouse]

I don't understand. What claim am I making?

Your answer to the first part of the question will be a claim. He wants you to provide a reference to support your answer.

 

[Mr. 5020]

Your answer to the first part of the question will be a claim. He wants you to provide a reference to support your answer.

Thanks, but I'm talking to Sozo.

 

[Sozo]

So, then, are you saying that the fruit is physical evidence of the person's salvation>

Faith is the evidence.

If someone says "Jesus did not die for all my sins", that is evidence that they do not believe God. If they say "Jesus did not rise from the dead", that would be evidence that they do not believe God. If they say "We are to obey the revealed moral Law of God", that is evidence that they do not believe God. They do not have faith in God.

I don't understand. What claim am I making?

You are asking the questions about "fruit". Surely, you have something in mind, or you would not be asking.

 

[Lighthouse]

Thanks, but I'm talking to Sozo.

You are asking the questions about "fruit". Surely, you have something in mind, or you would not be asking.

Ta dah!

 

[Mr. 5020]

Faith is the evidence.

Faith is not physical. That's why I said "physical evidence."

If someone says "Jesus did not die for all my sins", that is evidence that they do not believe God. If they say "Jesus did not rise from the dead", that would be evidence that they do not believe God. If they say "We are to obey the revealed moral Law of God", that is evidence that they do not believe God. They do not have faith in God.

See, words are physical evidence. But, I think I understand you here.

You are asking the questions about "fruit". Surely, you have something in mind, or you would not be asking.

I mean, a couple verses come to mind. I'll quote them. I'm really just trying to get an understanding of your position, though.

Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

​

 

[Mr. 5020]

Ta dah!

I didn't think you were wrong.

I just don't like you, and I don't like talking to you.

I hope you understand.

 

[Sozo]

I mean, a couple verses come to mind. I'll quote them. I'm really just trying to get an understanding of your position, though.

Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

​

The issue is the tree. You and I are not the tree, Jesus is. The fruit belongs solely to Him. If you are in Him, you will bear (not produce) the fruit of the tree. You are the recepient of the fruit.. Love, joy, peace, etc.

If you are in the Spirit, then you are not in the flesh. You are not under the Law. You have received the gift of righteousness through faith in Christ. You bear the fruit of the Spirit. You are no longer under God's wrath and condemnation. You have been set free from His wrath, free from sin, free from the Law, and free from death.

If you look at the previous verse in Galatians 5, you will see that if you are under the Law, the only things that you can produce are the deeds of the flesh, that is why we can praise God that we bear the fruit of the Spirit, and not the condemnation that comes through the Law.

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death."

If you can understand what I am pointing out here, it will change your life forever. I hope you do, because most people really don't get it, because their minds are set on the flesh, and the mind set on the flesh is death.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I understand Eph. 2:10, which contradicts your false assessment of my true beliefs. We are God's 'poem' (in the Greek).

I don't follow you.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

My read of Ephesians 2:1-10 is that through God's grace, the spiritually dead, deserving only justice from God, were provided salvation through faith. Further, believers are the "workmanship" of God in whom and through whom He performs good works (Philippians 2:13).

The word “workmanship” ([FONT=&quot]ποίημα[/FONT]), is only used here and at Romans 1:20. The word refers to a work of art. It is not the word used for human works (e.g., Ephesians 2:9). Believers are masterpieces (works of art, handiworks) of God because we have been "created in Christ" (Eph. 2:6-7). The phrase "which God prepared beforehand" is connected to "works". Hence, works have been prepared (God's blueprint) for us to do ("walk in them").

The workmanship of God is not achieved by good works, for believers have been created in Christ. Instead the workmanship of God is to result in good works (cf. Titus 2:14; Titus 3:8).

This is why we seek to find God's will for each of us and obey.

 

[Lighthouse]

I don't follow you.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

My read of Ephesians 2:1-10 is that through God's grace, the spiritually dead, deserving only justice from God, were provided salvation through faith. Further, believers are the "workmanship" of God in whom and through whom He performs good works (Philippians 2:13).

The word “workmanship” ([FONT=&quot]ποίημα[/FONT]), is only used here and at Romans 1:20. The word refers to a work of art. It is not the word used for human works (e.g., Ephesians 2:9). Believers are masterpieces (works of art, handiworks) of God because we have been "created in Christ" (Eph. 2:6-7). The phrase "which God prepared beforehand" is connected to "works". Hence, works have been prepared (God's blueprint) for us to do ("walk in them").

The workmanship of God is not achieved by good works, for believers have been created in Christ. Instead the workmanship of God is to result in good works (cf. Titus 2:14; Titus 3:8).

This is why we seek to find God's will for each of us and obey.

:jawdrop:

Well, it had to happen sometime. I agree with you.

 

[Lighthouse]

I didn't think you were wrong.

I just don't like you, and I don't like talking to you.

I hope you understand.

I have to ask...













What the hell is your problem?

 

[elected4ever]

I suppose I am confused.

You do not think that Christians should bear fruit?

What is the fruit? Faith or works?