No.
You insert your own views into the verses.
The resurrection is of the whole person at one time.
LA
Are there Saints In Heaven? Poll Question
- Thread starter patrick jane
- Start date
No.
You insert your own views into the verses.
The resurrection is of the whole person at one time.
LA
glorydaz
Well-known member
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.....sorta throws a wrench in your view. :chew:
Rosenritter
New member
Saint- noun- a person acknowledged as holy or virtuous and typically regarded as being in heaven after death
lain:
Psalms 16:3 KJV
(3) But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.
Daniel 7:21-22 KJV
(21) I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
(22) Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Romans 15:25-26 KJV
(25) But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
(26) For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
1 Corinthians 16:1-2 KJV
(1) Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
(2) Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
2 Corinthians 1:1 KJV
(1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
Philippians 1:1 KJV
(1) Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
I can see plenty of passages telling us that the saints are on the earth, in Jerusalem, Achaia, and even Philippi. Where would there be a passage telling us that the saints are currently in heaven?
Rosenritter
New member
1. Enoch died in faith, not having received the promises (Hebrews 11:13).
2. Moses died (Deuteronomy 34:6) and we are told that the LORD buried his body secretly. When Joshua speaks to Israel he tells them that Moses is dead, not that Moses ascended to heaven (Joshua 1:1).
3. Elijah was carried into heaven by a whirlwind in 2 Kings 2:11, yet we are shown that he was still somewhere on the earth with the ability to send letters to the king (2 Chronicles 21:12) and given Christ's clear statement in John 3:13 that "no man has ascended to heaven" it is clearly understood that the heaven of 2 Chronicles refers to the visible sky, not the invisible heaven of God's abode.
@Lazy afternoon, would you like to have an opportunity to answer the question yourself, rather than presuming that I be able to reconstruct your reasoning for you? Why would you suggest that Jesus was not speaking accurately in John 3:13, and that other men were abiding in heaven?
Upon death the soul is dead, the body deteriorates, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
God stores the spirit so it can be placed into a new body when the time comes.
Rosenritter
New member
Daniel 7:21-22 would be speaking of living saints. I am not familiar with a location called "particular judgment" from scripture. I am familiar with "the Judgment" but all the participants in this judgment are those who have been raised to life in resurrection. I'm not sure how any of this should establish that any saints are in heaven at this time.
"For as the body without the spirit is dead" (James 2:26)
When Jesus' spirit departed he was dead.
"And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, 'Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.' Having said this, He breathed His last." (Luke 23:46)
Rosenritter
New member
Ezekiel 18:20-21 KJV
(20) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
(21) But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Rosenritter
New member
Unfortunately, the way you wrote that it could be interpreted multiple ways. The name Dismas seems to be employed by the Catholic tradition, so do you mind if I quote the passage in question from the Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible? But if you have no preference I'll switch back to the King James.
Luke 23:42-43 DRB
(42) And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom.
(43) And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
I realize that there are differences in various translations, but the Catholic Bible is one of those that place the decree of "thou shalt be with me in paradise" as being pronounced that day, speaking of the giving of the promise, rather that predicting the date of fulfillment. "Today" modifies the shalt, not the "be with me" in the passage. Besides, Dismas asked concerning when Jesus would come into his kingdom, which would be a future date.
Other parables establish when Jesus is said to come into his kingdom, such as the parable of the pounds. The nobleman in this parable (Jesus) departs, and he comes into his kingdom after he returns to rule.
Luke 19:14-15 DRB
(14) But his citizens hated him and they sent an embassage after him, saying: We will not have this man to reign over us.
(15) And it came to pass that he returned, having received the kingdom: and he commanded his servants to be called, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading,
We know from scripture that the dead, small and great, do not stand before judgment until after Christ's return at the end of the world, when he has already come into his kingdom. Technically, even a thousand years after he has come into his kingdom.
Revelation 20:4-5 DRB
(4) And I saw seats. And they sat upon them: and judgment was given unto them. And the souls of them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God and who had not adored the beast nor his image nor received his character on their foreheads or in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(5) The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Dismas would be one of those who live and reign with Christ a thousand years in Revelation 20:4. The condemned would be included in those that lived not again until the thousand years were finished. Their rewards and punishments don't have to mirror each other exactly in timing.
no it does not.
Read the context.
It is about being clothed with immortality when we are with the Lord, thus absent from our old body before resurrection.
These one verse ideas you have only lead you away from the truth.
LA
God's Truth
New member
Of course Lazy Afternoon was wrong; however, spirits don't die.
God's Truth
New member
Jesus went to prison/hell in his Spirit and preached to the spirits there; and in his Spirit he raised his own body from the dead.
God took Enoch. You have to think about as to where.
Jude tells us Michael took Moses from the grave, and Moses and Elijah spoke to Jesus on the mountain.
Since when does the Bible say The Heaven is invisible?
One can go to Heaven without it being in the sky.
Do you think God took Elijah only into the sky?
2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
It depends on how you understand the whole of Heaven to be.
2Co 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
LA
also--
2Ch 21:12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
2Ch 21:13 But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:
2Ch 21:14 Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:
2Ch 21:15 And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day.
When did Elijah make the writing.
LA
2Ch 21:12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
2Ch 21:13 But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:
2Ch 21:14 Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:
2Ch 21:15 And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day.
When did Elijah make the writing.
LA
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
The book of Enoch was written by mistics.
Rosenritter
New member
Why would we need to think about where? Wherever it was, it wasn't heaven, because Jesus said no man has ascended to heaven. And where ever it was, he eventually died, because Paul says that Enoch died, not having received the promises.
Where does Jude tell us that Michael took Moses from the grave? Are you sure you're reading that correctly? Do you have another translation that says something different than this? Besides, why would it say that the LORD buried Moses in a valley in the land of Moab (Duet 34:4) if he was then going to take him from the grave again?
Jude 1:9 KJV
(9) Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Matthew 17:9 KJV
(9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't this vision take place on a high mountain (see Matthew 17:1?) Not Mars Hill, not the inner portion of the temple? On a mountain, on the earth, and none of the observers of this vision were in heaven? As such, how would this establish that Moses and Elijah were in heaven? I could see how one might argue that they had been raised from the dead if we ignored the part where Jesus explained that they had seen a vision, but heaven isn't even part of this equation.
Since 1 Timothy 3:16. At least that's what I interpret "which no man hath seen, nor can see" to mean. "Invisible" is a little shorter to type.
1 Timothy 6:16 KJV(16) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Yes.
2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Since we're discussing an Old Testament reference in the context of a whirlwind, might it be appropriate to consider the earliest and most famous definition of heaven provided for us in the Old Testament?
Genesis 1:7-8 KJV
(7) And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
(8) And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Genesis 1:20 KJV
(20) And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
The quote you provided in 2 Corinithians acknowledges that there are several heavens. One of these is the heaven where the birds fly above. The next heaven contains the paths of the sun, moon, and stars. The third heaven is the invisible heaven, the abode of God and his angelic host
So, when you read the passage by Jesus in John 3:13, according to the context, which heaven is he speaking of? Does it make sense that he would be talking of the blue sky or the black void of space, or does it seem as if he means the light unto which no man can approach, of which no man has seen, nor can see?
John 3:13 KJV
(13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
If we allow that Jesus knew what he was talking about, when you read the passage speaking of Elijah being caught up to heaven in a whirlwind, which of the two remaining heavens would Elijah have been caught up to?
I appreciate all the words that you post, but I never understand your beliefs. Do you believe there are saints in heaven now? Do you believe in the doctrine of the trinity? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God?
Agreed.
Where were Moses and Elijah hanging out while Jesus walked the earth?
They were seen by disciples speaking with Jesus. Matthew 17:3
jsanford108
New member
Are there Saints In Heaven? Poll Question
Yes. There are saints in heaven. I believe there are saints on earth. And I believe all the prophets are in heaven, as well.
All evidence by Scripture, as you have diligently pointed out. Good work, friend.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Yes. There are saints in heaven. I believe there are saints on earth. And I believe all the prophets are in heaven, as well.
All evidence by Scripture, as you have diligently pointed out. Good work, friend.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL