Are there Saints In Heaven? Poll Question

[God's Truth]

Sin is spiritual. Jesus died physically and spiritually.

We all die once, but thanks to Jesus we need not die twice.

Jesus didn't die Spiritually; he went to prison/hell in his Spirit.

Tell us all how Jesus raise himself if he no longer existed. lol

 

[way 2 go]

That was about not seeing death in his physical body; he was taken up in his spirit without experiencing death of his body. That does not mean his body went to heaven.

no.

Gen 5:20 Thus all the days of Jared were 962 years, and he died.
Gen 5:21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he fathered Methuselah.
Gen 5:22 Enoch walked with God after he fathered Methuselah 300 years and had other sons and daughters.
Gen 5:23 Thus all the days of Enoch were 365 years.
Gen 5:24 Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.

 

[jamie]

Tell us all how Jesus raise himself if he no longer existed. lol

"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Romans 8:11)

 

[Lazy afternoon]

You are a soul sleep believer, a doctrine of death.

So you believe Jesus taught an evil doctrine.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: (decay)
Act 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.(decay)

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Only then shall we be forever with the Lord--

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Looks like you prefer the doctrines of devils.

LA

 

[Rosenritter]

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of Elohim, and for the testimony which they held".

Every time you post you show your blind ignorance.

There's nothing inconsistent between Jamie's statement and said passage.

Besides this, you do acknowledge that the entire book of Revelation uses a wealth of symbolic imagery? Horses and horsemen, multi-headed beasts, and the images of people that were slain crying out, "How long until we be avenged?"

 

[Truster]

There's nothing inconsistent between Jamie's statement and said passage.

Besides this, you do acknowledge that the entire book of Revelation uses a wealth of symbolic imagery? Horses and horsemen, multi-headed beasts, and the images of people that were slain crying out, "How long until we be avenged?"

I understand Revelation. That is why I quoted it.

 

[Rosenritter]

I can understand the thought process you present about 'visions', and it is something to consider.

Usually when a person in scripture is witnessing a 'vision' they are in sleep or trance-like state of being.
I don't see that as being the case when the disciples saw Jesus with Moses and Elijah.
It is written as if they are fully awake and aware, even to the point of being worried if they should build a tent for them.
And they hear the voice of the LORD and are so afraid that they fell on their faces.
None of this seems to imply that they were asleep or in a trance when this took place.

What type of body they had when the disciples saw them is unknown.
It is a good assumption to think their old flesh bodies were still in the grave, as was David's.
It is my assumption that what the disciples saw was their spirits, and not their resurrected bodies.
One of those rare instances when the human eye can see the spiritual realm, as when Elijah saw the army of angels all around him and asked GOD to open the eyes of his servant so he could see them also. 2 Kings 6:17
It was really happening, and was not just a dream.

But I leave my options open for further study.

I have seen or heard many types of explanation as to the importance of this story, and what it's intended message revealed.
They seem incomplete to me, as if there is something more to the story.

I don't think John the Baptist being spoken of as Elijah has anything to do with this story.
As he is said to have come in the spirit of Elijah. Luke 1:17

Good study!
Thanks for your responses.

Thank you for the kind style of response. We need more of that on these boards.

Usually when a person in scripture is witnessing a 'vision' they are in sleep or trance-like state of being.

I'm not sure how relevant that consideration may be. It's not a question of whether the disciples all saw the same thing, and I don't think it matters whether the vision reached them through their eyes or whether it was directly overlaid on top of their brain. Likewise, it could be a physical manifestation or vision granted of the spirit realm, such as the case of Elijah that you mentioned. The elements that I note are:

1) that to be consistent with other parts of scripture, there is no life outside of resurrection.
2) that although it is with God's prerogative to raise ahead of schedule for a specific purpose and as such remains a possibility, this would be a special exception, rather than the rule (Matthew 27:52-53)
3) the more pressing implication of the term vision, to me, is that whatever they saw likely had symbolic meaning

I recognize that point one (1) above may be subject for debate considering the nature of this thread. However, regardless of where one stands on that point, I acknowledge that it could be possible that this was the literal Moses and Elijah, specifically raised for this appearance.

Yet, I think this is unlikely, considering the nature of visions in general. If we consider the most well known vision of the entire scripture, the book of Revelation, it is filled with images of people and things. While some of these people and things are most certainly real, the images of them likely were not. For example,

1) Horses are real things. Yet I think it is unlikely that God recruited real horses to play their parts with the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse

2) I acknowledge that Jesus Christ is most certainly real, and I believe that he personally spoke at parts within the vision. However, I am inclined to think that the parts with him appearing in the clouds and destroying armies didn't require him as a live action participant, destroying real people just to make the scene.... a scene which is set in a future setting, mind you.

Thinking of this vision on the Mount of Transfiguration in a similar vein as the vision in the book of Revelation, I am inclined to think that the figures of Moses and Elijah were symbolic elements of the vision. That the vision had symbolic meaning is evident in Jesus's response to his disciples, which seems to indicate that they didn't understand what they had seen.

But regardless of how the vision is interpreted, it doesn't establish that Moses or Elijah were ever in heaven (the abode of God) in any form at any time. Even if we grant that these were real manifestations of the original people, they were seen on the earth, not in heaven. The given details of the event don't contradict either opinion. Like you said, it's not given to us in any complete sense.

 

[Tambora]

Thank you for the kind style of response. We need more of that on these boards.

Yes, it is a delight to study in this way.

I'm not sure how relevant that consideration may be. It's not a question of whether the disciples all saw the same thing, and I don't think it matters whether the vision reached them through their eyes or whether it was directly overlaid on top of their brain. Likewise, it could be a physical manifestation or vision granted of the spirit realm, such as the case of Elijah that you mentioned. The elements that I note are:

1) that to be consistent with other parts of scripture, there is no life outside of resurrection.
2) that although it is with God's prerogative to raise ahead of schedule for a specific purpose and as such remains a possibility, this would be a special exception, rather than the rule (Matthew 27:52-53)
3) the more pressing implication of the term vision, to me, is that whatever they saw likely had symbolic meaning

I recognize that point one (1) above may be subject for debate considering the nature of this thread. However, regardless of where one stands on that point, I acknowledge that it could be possible that this was the literal Moses and Elijah, specifically raised for this appearance.

Yet, I think this is unlikely, considering the nature of visions in general. If we consider the most well known vision of the entire scripture, the book of Revelation, it is filled with images of people and things. While some of these people and things are most certainly real, the images of them likely were not. For example,

1) Horses are real things. Yet I think it is unlikely that God recruited real horses to play their parts with the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse

2) I acknowledge that Jesus Christ is most certainly real, and I believe that he personally spoke at parts within the vision. However, I am inclined to think that the parts with him appearing in the clouds and destroying armies didn't require him as a live action participant, destroying real people just to make the scene.... a scene which is set in a future setting, mind you.

Thinking of this vision on the Mount of Transfiguration in a similar vein as the vision in the book of Revelation, I am inclined to think that the figures of Moses and Elijah were symbolic elements of the vision. That the vision had symbolic meaning is evident in Jesus's response to his disciples, which seems to indicate that they didn't understand what they had seen.

But regardless of how the vision is interpreted, it doesn't establish that Moses or Elijah were ever in heaven (the abode of God) in any form at any time. Even if we grant that these were real manifestations of the original people, they were seen on the earth, not in heaven. The given details of the event don't contradict either opinion. Like you said, it's not given to us in any complete sense.

I've seen or heard so many versions of what the story represented.
I try to remember them all.

The one I am most partial to is that it happened to remind and give encouragement to His disciples of the coming restored kingdom in which it was expected that Elijah and Moses would come before that time happened.
More of a reminder than some new revelation.

Some conclude that Elijah and Moses will be the two witnesses killed by the beast in Revelation 11:3.
Representing the witness of the prophets and the law. (Romans 3:21 and Luke 16:29)
Especially since the 2 witnesses do miracles very similar to that Moses and Elijah had done.
The thing about that view is that Moses and Elijah would have to be raised in mortal bodies in order to be killed.

It is possible that the 2 witnesses will be men acting in the spirit of Elijah and Moses, as John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah.

 

[God's Truth]

"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus

...Jesus' Spirit the Spirit of God Himself.

from the dead dwells in you,

...Jesus' Spirit the Spirit of God Himself.

He who raised Christ from the dead

Jesus' Spirit the Spirit of God Himself.

will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Romans 8:11)

Jesus' Spirit the Spirit of God Himself.

 

[God's Truth]

no.

Gen 5:20 Thus all the days of Jared were 962 years, and he died.
Gen 5:21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he fathered Methuselah.
Gen 5:22 Enoch walked with God after he fathered Methuselah 300 years and had other sons and daughters.
Gen 5:23 Thus all the days of Enoch were 365 years.
Gen 5:24 Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.

How do you EVER get that you disproved what I said?

Enoch did not experience dying, the death of his physical body, because God took him up spiritually before his body died.

 

[God's Truth]

So you believe Jesus taught an evil doctrine.

No, but you do.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

According to your lack of faith and false doctrines, you die physically every time you fall asleep.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

So you believe Jesus taught an evil doctrine.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: (decay)
Act 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.(decay)

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Only then shall we be forever with the Lord--

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Looks like you prefer the doctrines of devils.

LA

 

[jamie]

...Jesus' Spirit the Spirit of God Himself.

So who is the Spirit of Christ?

We know Christ is not our Father to whom Jesus said people should pray.

 

[Rosenritter]

Yes, it is a delight to study in this way.

I've seen or heard so many versions of what the story represented.
I try to remember them all.

The one I am most partial to is that it happened to remind and give encouragement to His disciples of the coming restored kingdom in which it was expected that Elijah and Moses would come before that time happened.
More of a reminder than some new revelation.

Some conclude that Elijah and Moses will be the two witnesses killed by the beast in Revelation 11:3.
Representing the witness of the prophets and the law. (Romans 3:21 and Luke 16:29)
Especially since the 2 witnesses do miracles very similar to that Moses and Elijah had done.
The thing about that view is that Moses and Elijah would have to be raised in mortal bodies in order to be killed.

It is possible that the 2 witnesses will be men acting in the spirit of Elijah and Moses, as John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah.

I think it might be a mixture of Moses and Elijah being representative figures for the "Law and the Prophets" and that there were specific prophetic references with both Moses (regarding "that Prophet") and Elijah (which was to first come and restore all things.)

Moses and Elijah both link to the prophetic messiah.

Deu 18:18
(18) I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Mal 4:4-5
(4) Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
(5) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Mat 17:10-13
(10) And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
(11) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
(12) But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
(13) Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

I am inclined to think that the two witnesses of Revelation may be unrelated. Two not such an uncommon number as to demand correlation. I don't worry about that much, because I figure if we are there we'll know it when we see it.

 

[God's Truth]

So who is the Spirit of Christ?

We know Christ is not our Father to whom Jesus said people should pray.

The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God.

The Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God are the one and only Divine Spirit.

They are one and the same.

 

[Rosenritter]

So who is the Spirit of Christ?

We know Christ is not our Father to whom Jesus said people should pray.

Why would Jesus teach his disciples to pray to him in the distance when they were right there and could speak to him face to face? When God is not in front of us, we pray to the Father. When God is in front of us, we speak to Jesus.

Isn't this topic bleeding over from another thread?

 

[jamie]

Why would Jesus teach his disciples to pray to him in the distance when they were right there and could speak to him face to face? When God is not in front of us, we pray to the Father. When God is in front of us, we speak to Jesus.

"The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate when he was determined to let Him go." (Acts 3:13)

Like us Jesus was a servant.

 

[jamie]

The Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God are the one and only Divine Spirit.

Yes, Jesus had the mind of the Spirit, but they are different persons.

"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)

We will be priests of both.

 

[Rosenritter]

"The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate when he was determined to let Him go." (Acts 3:13)

Like us Jesus was a servant.

... but unlike us, Jesus is our God.

Joh 20:28
(28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Jesus was found in the fashion of a man, and endured all things as we do, and when in that form he was a servant and a prophet and the messiah. Maybe this discussion belongs on another board?

 

[jamie]

... but unlike us, Jesus is our God.

What do you mean by "unlike us"?

Jesus said, "I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God." (John 20:17)

We have the same God as our co-heir Jesus.