Epoisses
New member
Thank you Captain Obvious.
Are people born in Christ or born in sin?
- Thread starter Samie
- Start date
Thank you Captain Obvious.
You're welcome and it disproves the Friday crucifixion.
Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, April 5, 30 CE.
No, brother. You could have simply misunderstood them.
No. It's your position that is disproven, not what the Bible says. The Bible is simply not in accord with your belief which you think is in accord with it.
Good to know that you know that. So why do you deny what Jesus said as plainly written in the Bible, brother? He plainly taught in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son that people are born NOT lost. see Luke 15:1-24.
Before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheepfold cared for by its shepherd.
Before the coin was lost, it was in the house with its owner.
Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.
So with us. We were born NOT lost. And to be NOT lost, is to be in Christ.
So why can't you believe what He taught and instead believe on Augustine of Hippo that people are born in sin and hence born NOT in Christ and therefore born already lost?
That's your conclusion. And it is a conclusion diametrically opposite to the conclusion of our Lord:
KJV Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Because we, like sheep, went astray:
KJV Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Nope. To be born in sin, is to be born NOT in Christ and hence born lost. But Jesus taught that people start out in life NOT lost. He plainly pointed out in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son that people are born NOT lost. see Luke 15:1-24.
Before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheepfold cared for by its shepherd.
Before the coin was lost, it was in the house with its owner.
Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.
So with us. We were born NOT lost. And to be NOT lost, is to be in Christ.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
It's not my conclusion, it's what the Psalmist wrote. Matthew 19:14 doesn't say that the children are in the kingdom - more specifically it doesn't make a statement about the sinlessness of children. In fact, if the children didn't need salvation, then I would say Jesus would be less adamant about letting them in. Rather, their willingness to come to Him is what it seems He is commenting on (He laid His hands on them and prayed for them).
In 3 of 4 gospels, the statement is made by Jesus that one must receive the Kingdom as a little child. There is nothing said of being born sinless. The child is not said to have been born sinless. Rather, the child is unencumbered with the cares of this world and so readily and wholeheartedly accepts the Kingdom of God. Their concerns to provide for themselves are non-existent as they trust entirely on their parents to give them what they need. This is a picture of child-like faith. So Jesus says :
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:3
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
Mark 10:15
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
Luke 18:17
And if you go on a few verses from the Markan quote, you find a helpful contrast :
And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
Mark 10:24
A child's master is not himself, but his parents. He is totally dependent upon mother and father.
But as for sinlessness, I don't see any of that in Jesus' words.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jeremiah 17:9
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Matthew 15:19
Certainly, a child is not a ravenous rebel that needs to be chained up or in any sense treated like a criminal (!), but all the seeds of this externalized evidence of sin are already there, as far as I can see. A child that lies to escape trouble isn't doing it necessarily because they have been taught to lie. A child that throws a fit because it doesn't get a toy isn't doing it because violence has been modeled for them. The child that says "I hate you" need not have heard that from anyone. Certainly, some children are worse than others and some even listen well to their parents (and their blessings are lifelong as the commandments promise). But in the light of eternity, every person has to come to grips with the sinful nature with which they came into this world.
Which you simply misunderstood. The Psalmist won't and can't contradict the statement of our Lord that people start out life NOT lost, as He plainly taught in the parables of lost sheep, lost coin and lost son. see Luke 15:1-24.
Before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheepfold cared for by its shepherd.
Before the coin was lost, it was in the house with its owner.
Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.
So with us. We were born NOT lost. And to be NOT lost, is to be in Christ.
Sorry, brother, but little children will be in the kingdom:
Isaiah 11:6-9 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
This chapter nowhere teaches that anyone is born sinless, though. They only speak of returning to God in repentance and the joy which that engenders in heaven. You have introduced the assumption that they mean people are born without sin...without a sinful nature.
Yes...children will be in the kingdom. I don't see how that denies the original proposition (that of being born with a sinful nature).
I think it is extremely rare for newborn babies to express evil thoughts or commit murders, adulteries, forications, thefts, false witness or blasphemies.
The thread is about whether people are born in Christ or born in sin of which neither is true.
The thread is about whether people are born in Christ or born in sin of which neither is true.
Newborns are not born in sin, but rather born to sin and then to require a Redeemer.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Actually, I would say it never happens. But the key word there is "express". If a man goes before the judgment seat having never committed adultery but has coveted in his heart (whether his neighbor's wife or his neighbor's goods), does that make him any less guilty of adultery or covetousness before God? Just because it stays in the heart doesn't mean it is any less indictable.
God's Truth
New member
You get mixed up about the Jews when Jesus came to earth.
Don't you know the WHOLE WORLD is CONDEMNED UNTIL they come to God through Jesus?
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
No one is in Christ until they come to him with living faith, faith with obedience.
However, the truth is no one is judged before death and the purpose of the second resurrection is not to kill people who have paid for their sins.
Paul claimed that those who have died are freed from sin, which is the purpose of baptism.
"For he who has died has been freed from sin." (Romans 6:7)
"Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him" (Romans 6:8)
I am amazed at you not seeing that the lost do not start life already lost, despite your use of the word "return". If you were born in sin, then you are born NOT with God because sin separates man from God (Isa 59:2). So how can you return to God when you were NEVER with Him?
Of course it does deny the doctrine of Augustine that people are born in sin, instead of born in Christ. If people are born in sin, then children are born NOT in Christ. BUT there will children in the kingdom.
Jesus taught that there will be no marriage in heaven (Matt 22:30; Mark 12:25) and therefore no pregnancy can occur in the kingdom. So, from where did those children in the kingdom come from? The only possibility is, they are those, in this earth now, who died at infancy and will be resurrected in the resurrection of the just. If children are born in sin, as you claim, then children won't get resurrected in the resurrection of the just, being sinners and hence unjust as per your proposition.
God's Truth
New member
You didn't even consider the fact that Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel, meaning the Jews who were taught about God and believed and obeyed him.
Don't resist help that is being offered to you. Only humble hearts will receive help from Jesus.
God's Truth
New member
Babies don't naturally know God.
So they are born inclined to negativity, which is sin. For we are told to think of what is lovely and true.
God's Truth
New member
Right, no one is born in Christ. However, to not have Christ is to be inclined to sin.
Am quite amazed at your ability to close your eyes from seeing the truth. Before a sheep becomes a "Lost sheep", it was in the sheepfold under its shepherd's care, hence, it's first situation is "NOT Lost". Can you understand now?
Tell that to yourself, GT.
WRONG.
You can't even explain how & why you are now in Christ, can you?