Are people born in Christ or born in sin?

[glorydaz]

Yikes!

Jesus Christ was born fully Man, but conceived by the Spirit of God, which issued forth as a human being without sin. Fully Man but fully (sinless) God.

This is the sole and entire basis for His ability to advocate and save a remnant of humanity according to divine forensics (legal demands) and grace alone.

Without comprehension of the imputation of sin imposed by God upon all men due to the first Adam, can anyone appreciate the imputation of righteousness granted by the pure grace God, upon the spiritual offspring of the last Adam, Jesus Christ.

The lack of Gospel insight by TOL members, never fails to shock my heart and mind!!!

Oh, you mean no one is supposed to question your doctrine? :chuckle:


You lie, then, when you say Jesus is fully man. JESUS was fully sinless because he did not sin.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;​

 

[Nang]

Oh, you mean no one is supposed to question your doctrine?

No one will survive the wrath of God, who does not believe His Word.

You lie, then, when you say Jesus is fully man.

You understand nothing of the Spirit of God, nor His Godhead.

JESUS was fully sinless because he did not sin.

NO!!!

Jesus Christ was sinless of because WHO HE IS . . not because of His human actions.

His sinless obedience only evidenced and proved His Perfect, Godly, Being. It did not earn or merit His Deity.

Get it?

 

[glorydaz]

Was Jesus born into sin or into a sinful world?

Which should put a lie to the claim that man has a sin nature.

How so?

That you brought up Jesus. :thumb:

Adam was fully human, but was tempted and sinned.
Jesus was fully human, was tempted, and didn't sin.

This proves that humans have a human nature as nothing else does. Nang denies what is plainly written....believes her doctrine instead. :nono:

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.​

 

[jsanford108]

When was Christ crucified? Did you say when He was nailed to the cross? So, why does the Bible say He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?

Did Christ die for you? If you say yes, then ask yourself "how could He when I was not yet born then?"

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Isaiah 55:8-9 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

This is a false equivalency to my question of "how can you be born in Christ before physical birth."

Yet, I shall answer, thus illustrating the fallacy.

Christ was crucified approximately 33 BC. Christ is the sacrifice for us, yes.

"Did Christ die for you": Yes. He died so that the world might have eternal life.

"How could He when I was not yet born": (here is your fallacy) Christ is eternal. Thus, He is not confined to the natural limits, such as death, time, etc. Therefore, Christ has the ability to absolve my sins. But I, a mere mortal, am confined by natural limits. Thus, I could not possess faith before my birth. If I could, I would be supernatural, existing on a plane of reality beyond mortality.


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[jsanford108]

Was Jesus born into sin or into a sinful world?

Christ was not born in sin, due to His supernatural conception and birth. He was born into a "world of sin," but not "born in sin."

Clever wordplay is not a valid theological point.


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[glorydaz]

Christ was not born in sin, due to His supernatural conception and birth. He was born into a "world of sin," but not "born in sin."

Clever wordplay is not a valid theological point.


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He had a Divine nature and a human nature. The rest of us only have a human nature.

God didn't create anyone with a sin nature, nor is sin passed down like a genetic disease.

 

[daqq]

Evil and good aren't pieces of candy. :chuckle:

Perhaps candy is evil while good contains Lamb with bitter herbs.

 

[glorydaz]

Perhaps candy is evil while good contains Lamb with bitter herbs.

That'd be just my luck, wouldn't it? I grew up eating lamb, but I really don't think I'm up for it at this stage of my life....and certainly no bitter herbs.

 

[daqq]

That'd be just my luck, wouldn't it? I grew up eating lamb, but I really don't think I'm up for it at this stage of my life....and certainly no bitter herbs.

It is, of course, symbolism: "Messiah our Passover is sacrificed for us", (1Cor 5:7). But it works the same in the physical; for if all we ate for "the principle meal", (dinner), was candy all the time, it would indeed end up being "evil", (bad for the physical body). So I suppose "Lamb" is akin to the "meat" of the Word. Therefore, I say from the scripture, eat all of the Lamb set before you, (bitter herbs and all, Exodus 12:8), leaving nothing til your "morning" come, (Exodus 12:10).

 

[oatmeal]

In case someone wants to dispute scripture:

The wages of sin is death

Romans 6:23

We are subject to death because of our sin nature.

A baby is born sinless, ie, having no active sin to its record, but it is born with a sinful nature because of the failure of Adam and Eve to remain sinless.

Their sin contaminated the soul life and body of all future generations.

Likewise, that part of Adam and Eve that was created in the image of God, the means for fellowship with God, was lost, they lost their spirit.

We regained that as a permanent part of ourselves when we were saved.

That is the gift of eternal life.

Romans 5:12-21

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians 2:1-5

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Romans 5:6-7

Romans 12:2

Romans 8:2-3 ...

 

[Samie]

Believing/accepting is not an "act" of man's, but a work of God.

Where is this in the Bible?

And, I would say, that you're not really understanding that text in John 15 as it was intended.

Problem is what you understand are not in the Bible. For example: "Believing/accepting" is a work of God.

 

[jamie]

Adam was fully human, but was tempted and sinned.
Jesus was fully human, was tempted, and didn't sin.

Yes, Jesus was born complete, we aren't.

No one is complete without God's Spirit.

Jesus had spiritual help from the day he was born.

"who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God" (Hebrews 9:14)

 

[Samie]

No, non-believers are not God's children. So how does one become a child of God?

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

You are telling me that before one believes, he is NOT a child of God, hence NOT in Christ Who said "apart from Me, you can do NOTHING". But you teach the opposite of what Jesus said because you are saying that while apart from Christ man can do SOMETHING - he can believe and accept.

Now, if you are right, then Jesus is wrong. But the fact is Jesus can not be wrong, therefore, it's you who are.

 

[jamie]

Christ was crucified approximately 33 BC.

33 BC? Really? I don't think so.

 

[jamie]

Now, if you are right, then Jesus is wrong. But the fact is Jesus can not be wrong, therefore, it's you who are.

You are simply proclaiming that eternal life is not a gift.

:troll:

 

[jamie]

Fully Man but fully (sinless) God.

Yes, Jesus proved he was mortal prior to his resurrection.

Was he fully God?

"Then Jesus answered and said to them, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself'" (John 5:19)

Wow, Jesus was just like us.

"Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren" (Hebrews 2:17)

 

[Samie]

This is a false equivalency to my question of "how can you be born in Christ before physical birth."

Yet, I shall answer, thus illustrating the fallacy.

Christ was crucified approximately 33 BC. Christ is the sacrifice for us, yes.

"Did Christ die for you": Yes. He died so that the world might have eternal life.

"How could He when I was not yet born": (here is your fallacy) Christ is eternal. Thus, He is not confined to the natural limits, such as death, time, etc. Therefore, Christ has the ability to absolve my sins. But I, a mere mortal, am confined by natural limits. Thus, I could not possess faith before my birth. If I could, I would be supernatural, existing on a plane of reality beyond mortality.

You misunderstood my post. Again, people are born in Christ, instead of born in sin. What is it that you don't understand with my position?

 

[Danoh]

To start with, what, to you, does the Bible tell us in these verses:

KJV Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

KJV Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Can we then say "conceived in sin but sanctified before birth"?

Can anyone show one or two Bible verses to warrant the belief that people are born in sin?

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

End of debate.

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12

 

[jsanford108]

He had a Divine nature and a human nature. The rest of us only have a human nature.

God didn't create anyone with a sin nature, nor is sin passed down like a genetic disease.

God did not create sinful nature, yes. But sin is passed down. Examples include: Genesis 3, beginning with verse 16, we see mankind inheriting the burdens caused by Adam and Eve's sin. Exodus 20:5, demonstrates the sins of the Hebrews being passed onto even the third and fourth generations. Deuteronomy 5:9, as well.

What sin is passed down? Original sin. That prideful, sinful nature, began by Adam and Eve.


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[jsanford108]

33 BC? Really? I don't think so.

I meant AD. My fault.


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