Are people born in Christ or born in sin?

[Samie]

Do we become sinners when we sin

Yes.

or are we born sinful?

No.

The main Scripture to understand on this topic is Romans 5:12: “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned”

Sinning is done AFTER one is born. Not BEFORE.

Acts 17:26 “And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth” because we all come from the same original man we inherited his flawed makeup of nature. Sin entered the world through the first man and spread to all his offspring- this happened by Adam sinning. Death is a result of sin, it was the result of sin. It occurred two ways. First God told Adam the day you eat of it you will die, Adam was separated from the Lord he died spiritually and was severed in his relationship. Second- He died physically, which was a result of his nature change. Aging and death began on that day. Both were a result from his disobedience in eating the fruit of the tree. 1 Cor.15:56: “the sting of death is sin,..”

You are portraying our God of agape love like an earthly Father who, upon seeing his child fall into the water simply did NOTHING to save his child from drowning.

 

[God's Truth]

Samie,

They who were called God's sheep, God's children...they were called that because they were saved.

A person isn't a sheep or a child of God UNTIL they are saved.

You are confusing scripture about being a child of God and sheep.

What makes people a child of God, a sheep? People who want to be saved and who are willing to be changed for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Samie]

GT,

You are confused.

You can't even address your claim of being able to do SOMETHING while yet APART from Christ Who said you can do NOTHING while APART from Him. You insist on your position that is totally opposed and against what Jesus Himself said.

How can you while APART from Christ do SOMETHING - receive, accept, believe - and become sheep, when Christ has said you can do NOTHING? How GT? How?

 

[Samie]

Jesus said he could do nothing and yet he believed and obeyed.

"I can of Myself do nothing." (John 5:30)

KJV John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

KJV John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

We must keep verses in their scriptural context.

So why don't you?

 

[nikolai_42]

You believe you were born in sin, hence, born NOT in Christ because sin separates man from God. And to be In Christ, you did SOMETHING - received the kingdom of God as a little child.

Your wrong belief brought you to another wrong belief: while yet APART from Christ, you were able to do SOMETHING - received the kingdom of God. Why wrong? Because Jesus said apart from Him, man can do NOTHING.

Faith is a gift from God. So you are correct - apart from Him no one can do anything. What do we have that we have not been given? Without Christ and being able to do nothing - doesn't imply that one has to be in Christ to be able to do something. It only means that He has to supply what we need. Everything we need. If a man is even aware that he is a sinner...if he is even aware that there might be something he needs - that isn't because of himself, that is a measure of faith that has been given him. Faithless man is spiritually blind - dead in trespasses and sin. Knows nothing about God. To be able to receive the Kingdom, one has to be able to hear first. To hear requires God opening the ears. You can't believe unless you hear. So even the very unstopping of the ears is of God.

I don't believe one need be regenerate to believe (though the two come almost simultaneously) - nor do I believe one need be regenerate to be alive to the reality of sin, death and judgment. But to even be aware of all this is of God.

If you want to take the fact that sin separates man from God in the direction you are going, then all men must first be sinless before even considering approaching Him. Man being born in sin does not invalidate faith.

 

[God's Truth]

GT,

You are confused.

You can't even address your claim of being able to do SOMETHING while yet APART from Christ Who said you can do NOTHING while APART from Him. You insist on your position that is totally opposed and against what Jesus Himself said.

How can you while APART from Christ do SOMETHING - receive, accept, believe - and become sheep, when Christ has said you can do NOTHING? How GT? How?

Jesus was telling people who were ALREADY a part of him that if they leave him then they can do nothing.

You are getting people and times mixed up.

 

[Samie]

Faith is a gift from God. So you are correct - apart from Him no one can do anything. What do we have that we have not been given? Without Christ and being able to do nothing - doesn't imply that one has to be in Christ to be able to do something.

Oh, so you're saying when Jesus said NOTHING, He really meant SOMETHING?

It only means that He has to supply what we need. Everything we need. If a man is even aware that he is a sinner...if he is even aware that there might be something he needs - that isn't because of himself, that is a measure of faith that has been given him. Faithless man is spiritually blind - dead in trespasses and sin. Knows nothing about God. To be able to receive the Kingdom, one has to be able to hear first. To hear requires God opening the ears. You can't believe unless you hear. So even the very unstopping of the ears is of God.

And what did you do that caused God to unstop your ears?

I don't believe one need be regenerate to believe (though the two come almost simultaneously) - nor do I believe one need be regenerate to be alive to the reality of sin, death and judgment. But to even be aware of all this is of God.

What did you do that qualified you for God to make you aware?

If you want to take the fact that sin separates man from God in the direction you are going, then all men must first be sinless before even considering approaching Him.

Of course. How were you able to do the spiritual act of APPROACHING GOD while still spiritually dead considering that you believe you were born in sin?

Man being born in sin does not invalidate faith.

It does invalidate faith. Here's how:

1. If you were born in sin, then you were born NOT in Christ because sin separates man from God.

2. If you are NOT in Christ, then you cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit.

3. If you cannot bear fruit, then you cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit.

4. If you cannot have faith, then you cannot believe because believing is exercising faith.

5. If you cannot believe, then as you teach, you cannot be in Christ.

Therefore a man born in sin, being born apart from Christ, can NEVER have faith and can NEVER be in Christ.

 

[jsanford108]

Already provided. Your position already disproved.

AGAIN, and yet again: It was Jesus Himself Who taught us in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, and lost son, that people do not begin life already lost, as what you are desperately trying to prove but can't because your position is diametrically opposite to the teachings of our Lord.

Already given. Here again: Luke 15:1-24.

You can't, or else, the bible contradicts itself.

By getting blotted out from the book of life. Rev 3:5; 20:15; 21:27.

Any other objections?

"Any other objections?" Plenty.

Could you refresh my memory then, where Scripture and logic contradicts my point?

Jesus never taught that people are born into Him upon physical birth. Sure, you are extrapolating from the parables, but such doctrine is never stated. Furthermore, why then could the rich man have to be baptized and sell all his possessions? Such acts are unnecessary if one is already "born in Christ." Why did Christ command the Apostles to go baptizing nations and teach about Christ? Such acts would be superfluous if we are "born in Christ" upon physical birth.

"By getting blotted out from the book of life. Rev 3:5; 20:15; 21:27": These are all reference to the Book of Life, and eternity, but none detail how one becomes "lost" if they are "born in Christ." How are some "lukewarm?" How does one get "blotted out," when we are told that none can be removed from his palm? (Granted, I do not ascribe to "once saved, always saved," as that is faulty doctrine; but your stance is one of unlimited atonement, but then paradox enters with the existence of hell)

So really, you have not proven your claim, rather just restated your initial point with the parables. Any teaching of Christ, that is in a parable, was expounded upon at some point, with clarity, by Christ or His Apostles.

 

[Samie]

Jesus was telling people who were ALREADY a part of him that if they leave him then they can do nothing.

You are getting people and times mixed up.

it's you who's getting mixed up.

You said you were born NOT in Christ and that when you believed, it's then that you were in Him. So I asked how were you able to do SOMETHING while apart from Christ Who said you can do NOTHING apart from Him.

 

[God's Truth]

it's you who's getting mixed up.

You said you were born NOT in Christ and that when you believed, it's then that you were in Him. So I asked how were you able to do SOMETHING while apart from Christ Who said you can do NOTHING apart from Him.

Nowhere anywhere are we told we cannot hear about God and do what He says and so be saved.

In fact, that is how it works.

Faith is from God, from reading His powerful message, the Bible, the New Testament. It has the powerful message that saves. We do not get faith supernaturally, as many teach, but we get faith in a very human way, from reading the supernatural message!

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.'

2 Peter 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

WE MUST HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD TO HAVE FAITH.

Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11. In Acts 26:17 Jesus tells Paul he is sending him to the Jews and Gentiles to OPEN THEIR EYES and turn them from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. How do you think Paul is going to open the eyes of the Jews and the Gentiles? Remember, faith comes from hearing the word, and Jesus sent Paul to preach the gospel. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Paul is going to open their eyes by preaching to them.

 

[Samie]

"Any other objections?" Plenty.

Could you refresh my memory then, where Scripture and logic contradicts my point?

I have pointed out Jesus' parables of the lost in Luke 15:1-24. Are they not Scriptures to you, hence you ask again? You say people are born in sin, and hence born lost. But Jesus in His parables told us the opposite.

 

[Samie]

Nowhere anywhere are we told we cannot hear about God and do what He says and so be saved.

Jesus already told you that You can do NOTHING while NOT in Him. Don't you believe Him?

 

[God's Truth]

I have pointed out Jesus' parables of the lost in Luke 15:1-24. Are they not Scriptures to you, hence you ask again? You say people are born in sin, and hence born lost. But Jesus in His parables told us the opposite.

Everyone is condemned until they come to Jesus to be saved.

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus already told you that You can do NOTHING while NOT in Him. Don't you believe Him?

Jesus was speaking to the lost sheep of Israel. They were saved and in him and he was warning them not to leave him.

We are told how to remain in Jesus, John 6:56, and if we do Jesus will remain in us, John 15:4. Jesus tells us of the good if we remain in him, John 15:5, and of the bad when we do not, John 15:6. Jesus exhorts us to remain in him, John 15:9, 10.

Again, Jesus is speaking to those who ARE ALREADY saved and in him, he is warning them to REMAIN in him or they can do nothing.

 

[Samie]

Jesus never taught that people are born into Him upon physical birth. Sure, you are extrapolating from the parables, but such doctrine is never stated. Furthermore, why then could the rich man have to be baptized and sell all his possessions? Such acts are unnecessary if one is already "born in Christ." Why did Christ command the Apostles to go baptizing nations and teach about Christ? Such acts would be superfluous if we are "born in Christ" upon physical birth.

We all were born in Christ. But we all like sheep went astray.

KJV Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

 

[Samie]

Jesus was speaking to the lost sheep of Israel. They were saved and in him and he was warning them not to leave him.

The issue is how you were able to do SOMETHING while yet NOT in Christ when Christ has said you can do NOTHING. Don't you believe Christ?

 

[God's Truth]

The issue is how you were able to do SOMETHING while yet NOT in Christ when Christ has said you can do NOTHING. Don't you believe Christ?

You need to show some respect and address all the scriptures I gave you instead of merely repeating your denial.

 

[God's Truth]

Nowhere anywhere are we told we cannot hear about God and do what He says and so be saved.

In fact, that is how it works.

Faith is from God, from reading His powerful message, the Bible, the New Testament. It has the powerful message that saves. We do not get faith supernaturally, as many teach, but we get faith in a very human way, from reading the supernatural message!

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.'

2 Peter 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

WE MUST HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD TO HAVE FAITH.

Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11. In Acts 26:17 Jesus tells Paul he is sending him to the Jews and Gentiles to OPEN THEIR EYES and turn them from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. How do you think Paul is going to open the eyes of the Jews and the Gentiles? Remember, faith comes from hearing the word, and Jesus sent Paul to preach the gospel. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Paul is going to open their eyes by preaching to them.

Look at how Samie just by passed all this that I said and he/she merely repeats the same denial post.

 

[Samie]

"By getting blotted out from the book of life. Rev 3:5; 20:15; 21:27": These are all reference to the Book of Life, and eternity, but none detail how one becomes "lost" if they are "born in Christ."

Already pointed you to Isa 53:6.

How are some "lukewarm?" How does one get "blotted out," when we are told that none can be removed from his palm?

Christ Himself will blot NON-OVERCOMERS from the book of life (Exo 32:33; Rev 3:5). To be blotted out from the book of life is to be DETACHED from the Body of Christ, EXPELLED from membership in the family of God.

 

[Samie]

Look at how Samie just by passed all this that I said and he/she merely repeats the same denial post.

Those verses you said I bypassed have nothing to do with your doing SOMETHING while yet NOT in Christ Who said you can do NOTHING while NOT in Him.

It's you who bypasses what Christ Himself said. Don't you believe in Him?