Where is it?Philetus said:
ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
Who said I wasn't taking responsibility for it. All I ever said was that I don't identify with it.Philetus said:
I'm a better communicator than they are, so I'll be fine.
Wesley's sinless perfection ideas of 'entire sanctification' does not square with a believer's potential struggle with sin. Various holiness groups sprung up, often breeding legalism.
Ironside "Holiness: The false and the true" (I have not read it) shows some potential negative affects of this doctrine. It can cause a seared conscience if one thinks they are perfect or all future sins are automatically forgiven if while persisted in. This can harden one to the deception of sin and grieve or quench the Holy Spirit who wants to work actual holiness in our lives (2 Cor. 7:1, 2; I Peter 1:13-16).
While this is not automatically true (cf. Calvinism's ideas can lead to a lack of passion for evangelism or missions, but not necessarily so), it is a concern I have with perfectionist views that only look at one side of the coin of sanctification.
Ironside "Holiness: The false and the true" (I have not read it) shows some potential negative affects of this doctrine. It can cause a seared conscience if one thinks they are perfect or all future sins are automatically forgiven if while persisted in. This can harden one to the deception of sin and grieve or quench the Holy Spirit who wants to work actual holiness in our lives (2 Cor. 7:1, 2; I Peter 1:13-16).
While this is not automatically true (cf. Calvinism's ideas can lead to a lack of passion for evangelism or missions, but not necessarily so), it is a concern I have with perfectionist views that only look at one side of the coin of sanctification.
Wesley was wrong. And all sin is forgiven, but persistence in sin is not done by those who have died to sin.
Lighthouse said:
Some Christians are in bondage to sins of the flesh like lust or gluttony. Wesley was wrong on this point, but not on many other good things he taught.
As an open theist, future non-existent sins that may or may not happen are not forgiven before we are born. We may not even become a believer since the future is open. What is true is that the same provision for past sins exists for future sins, but forgiveness is wisely linked with confession and repentance with a willingness to obey the Spirit and Word, not the desires of the flesh, lusts of the eyes/world, wiles of the enemy.
Sozo... can you spare the drama?Sozo said:
Seriously, you are like a junior high school girl.
If you wish to refute godrulz post, by all means do so! But spare us the pageantry.
elected4ever
New member
Look who's talking.Knight said:
I'm not saying they're forgiven before we're born, though I know some MAD who believe this, but I am saying they are all forgiven once we accept forgiveness. God says, "You are forgiven for the sins you have committed, and any you will commit in the future." That's how I see it. And you can't even support your stance that this is not true.godrulz said:
THREAD RESET.
So where are we at? Sozo, e4e (kinda) and Lighthouse (sorta) still hold on to the sweeping claim that Christians CANNOT sin. Yet the clear words of Paul still remain that refutes this notion entirely.
Christians can do sinful things but they are not sinners because they are forever identified with Jesus.
One might say... gee Knight aren't you basically saying the same thing as Sozo?
In a way... yes! That's why this argument is so silly! The only difference between me, and Sozo is I do not make the sweeping claim that Christians cannot sin because I acknowledge that the word sin can also be used as a simple verb to describe behavior that is in opposition to God's will. I acknowledge that Paul used the word "sin" in a more broad scope so therefore I will use the word likewise. I assert that Sozo, e4e and Lighthouse unnecessarily confuse the simple gospel message by failing to make such an acknowledgment.
So where are we at? Sozo, e4e (kinda) and Lighthouse (sorta) still hold on to the sweeping claim that Christians CANNOT sin. Yet the clear words of Paul still remain that refutes this notion entirely.
1Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. 7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse. 9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.
Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil.
Titus 3:10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.
(The divisive man here is in reference to other believers i.e., Christians)
1Timothy 5:20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. (the context is church elders failing in their responsibilities i.e., Christians)
Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
1Corinthians 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.
So, does that mean that Paul was saying Christians are sinners? No! Instead, Christians are free from sin, slaves to righteousness in that their sin is already covered and paid for in full by Christ's blood on the cross.Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil.
Titus 3:10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.
(The divisive man here is in reference to other believers i.e., Christians)
1Timothy 5:20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. (the context is church elders failing in their responsibilities i.e., Christians)
Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
1Corinthians 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.
Christians can do sinful things but they are not sinners because they are forever identified with Jesus.
One might say... gee Knight aren't you basically saying the same thing as Sozo?
In a way... yes! That's why this argument is so silly! The only difference between me, and Sozo is I do not make the sweeping claim that Christians cannot sin because I acknowledge that the word sin can also be used as a simple verb to describe behavior that is in opposition to God's will. I acknowledge that Paul used the word "sin" in a more broad scope so therefore I will use the word likewise. I assert that Sozo, e4e and Lighthouse unnecessarily confuse the simple gospel message by failing to make such an acknowledgment.
Sozo
New member
the moral religionist said:
No, godless, the flesh is dead to God. The deeds of the flesh are evident in ALL men.
They are... immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these.
When somone is under the dominion of the law of sin and death, the Law reveals that ALL men are guilty of the deeds of the flesh.
This is the condition of an unbeliever (I know you know what that is). The mind set on the flesh is death. The flesh cannot please God. Your mind, godless, is set on the flesh. In fact, you are still in the flesh.
There are no "future non-existent sins" for those in Christ. The Christian is not in the flesh. They have been transferred from the dominion of the law of sin and death and into the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. This is the crux of Christianity, the gospel message, the truth, the essential doctrine that escapes you. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. ALL forgiveness of sins is in Him. Those who are in Him, have the forgiveness of ALL sins, because they are free from the dominion of sin and death. That system, no longer has any authority over them. They have passed from death to life. From darkness to light.
I swear, either no one is reading their bibles, or they are not understanding what they read.
The free gift is available to ALL men by grace through faith in Christ. Once that happens, godless, (now listen closely for the millionth time), then the believer is a NEW creation. They are NEW, godless. Do you know what NEW means? He takes something that is dead and gives it life, NEVER to die again. (I know you reject that, but that's because you're still dead).
Your first comment and this last comment is what sparked my utter distaste for your anti-Christ stance. No question, I'm a jerk to people who preach a false gospel, but the intent of my heart is expose you demonically motivated perverts, and to hope that maybe one person will see through your facade.
Jesus died ONCE, godless, for ALL. That's ONCE for ALL. Forgiveness is not linked to the beliver through confession. God already had an inferior system of confession and sacrifice for sins. He did away with that system through the sacrifice of His Son, ONCE for ALL. Unbelievers agree with God (confess) that they are a sinner and that they have sin, to God, but it is the ONE and only sacrifice of Jesus, that is just, to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. Believers do not waver back and forth from righteousness to unrighteousness. Teaching that, as you do, makes the blood of Jesus no better that the blood of a goat.
Your consistent diminishing of the propitiary sacrifice of Jesus, and outright perversion of the gospel message makes me sick.
sentientsynth
New member
Are you saying that this is what Wesley taught and was wrong about?godrulz said:
Or are you saying that this is what you yourself believe?
Questionable words, in my eyes. You really are approaching a works-based soteriology. I'm sure that I won't convince you of that, but that's what you're doing. Plain. As. Day.godrulz said:
Actually I don't think that's any big secret. I have made it very clear that I disagree with godrulz faith plus works gospel but that doesn't mean I am going to call him a "pervert".Sozo said:
godrulz and I have disagreements some small, some large and that's OK (we also agree staunchly on certain issues). That's what TOL is for, discussing these issues and helping each other to determine what is right and what is wrong.
Sozo
New member
That's fair.Knight said:Actually I don't think that's any big secret. I have made it very clear that I disagree with godrulz faith plus works gospel but that doesn't mean I am going to call him a "pervert".
You are free to not call him what he clearly is.
I'm just calling him what I believe Paul would call him, based on what Paul said to those who preach what godrulz preaches. Nothing more, nothing less. However, Paul didn't have the internet, and was in a position to say things in person. Those were the days!
So now you care what words Paul uses????Sozo said:
:sigh:
Sozo
New member
I care a great deal about the words he uses. Have I said otherwise? I'm just wanting to understand why he uses them.Knight said:So now you care what words Paul uses????
I know why he called people perverts. I just am not sure why he used the words sinning and sin in a couple of places.