ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

[Sozo]

Does Mercychild believe that Jesus is God?
Does Mercychild believe that Jesus died to pay the sin debt that she owes?
Does Mercychild believe that God raised Jesus from the dead?

Where does it say in Romans 10:9 that someone must believe that Jesus is God? Where in that verse does it state that Jesus died for anyone's sins?

You're a blithering idiot, Clete!

You did the very same thing that you accused me of doing!

You may be articulate, but all that does is hide the fact that you are a hypocrite, a fool, and a lying piece of crap.

You're worse than a homo.

 

[Newman]

....

 

[Newman]

why can't we all just get along? :idunno:

 

[sentientsynth]

Sozo, I'm not sure if it's right to leap from "idiot" to "worse than a homo" in one full swoop. I mean, it's kind of like going from "I dog dare ya" straight to "I triple dog dare ya". It just ain't right. :nono:

I mean you called him a blithering idiot and turned right back around to call him worse than a homo in the same post without letting him get one in somewhere in the middle.

Usually, Sozo, you're brilliant. But this time, you goofed .... big time.

 

[Sozo]

Secondly YES it's wrong! If she believes that God became a man and died to pay her sin debt and that God raised Him from the dead then I don't care what she says or doesn't say, she will be saved.

She doesn't. She said so. Frankly, I'm not sure that you believe that Jesus paid the debt for sin.

That doesn't mean she isn't saved! Sure it means she's mistaken on a particular detail but the Bible DOES NOT teach that in order to become saved one must understand that believers have eternal life this side of Heaven.

You're wrong, Clete. It is as important an essential as believing that Jesus is God. Some people do not believe that when they get saved. In fact, many are never told that until later, but when someone who is saved hears the truth about who Christ is, they will not reject it. The evidence that someone is saved is that when they hear the truth about having eternal life now, they may question it, but they will not blatantly say "No I don't". Anyone who denies that they have the life, is not saved. Just as someone who is shown that Jesus is God, and then says "no He is not".

All you've proven is that the Bible teaches that we have eternal life as believers. You've not proven that believing that particular detail of the truth is necessary for salvation. Do you understand the difference?

Yes, but you don't. It is not necessary to be saved, but someone who is saved and has been told the truth about eternal life, will not say "no I don't have eternal life".

 

[genuineoriginal]

She doesn't. She said so. Frankly, I'm not sure that you believe that Jesus paid the debt for sin.

You're wrong, Clete. It is as important an essential as believing that Jesus is God. Some people do not believe that when they get saved. In fact, many are never told that until later, but when someone who is saved hears the truth about who Christ is, they will not reject it. The evidence that someone is saved is that when they hear the truth about having eternal life now, they may question it, but they will not blatantly say "No I don't". Anyone who denies that they have the life, is not saved. Just as someone who is shown that Jesus is God, and then says "no He is not".

Yes, but you don't. It is not necessary to be saved, but someone who is saved and has been told the truth about eternal life, will not say "no I don't have eternal life".

Sozo, you are confused. You have been told you are "saved," "born again," and have "eternal life." The truth is that you haven't been saved from the lake of fire yet because you haven't faced being thrown into it at the great white throne yet. You haven't been "born again" yet because you haven't been transformed and changed from corruptible to incorruptible yet. You haven't received "eternal life" yet because you haven't been changed from mortal to immortal yet.

These are all future events, which is what mercyschild is saying.

Are you so afraid of losing your salvation that you have to try to crush everyone else? The gospel message is simple, you too can be saved.

 

[elected4ever]

Sozo, you are confused. You have been told you are "saved," "born again," and have "eternal life." The truth is that you haven't been saved from the lake of fire yet because you haven't faced being thrown into it at the great white throne yet. You haven't been "born again" yet because you haven't been transformed and changed from corruptible to incorruptible yet. You haven't received "eternal life" yet because you haven't been changed from mortal to immortal yet.

These are all future events, which is what mercyschild is saying.

Are you so afraid of losing your salvation that you have to try to crush everyone else? The gospel message is simple, you too can be saved.

Your insain

 

[Clete]

Where does it say in Romans 10:9 that someone must believe that Jesus is God? Where in that verse does it state that Jesus died for anyone's sins?

It doesn't. Who suggested otherwise? Don't say me, okay! You'll only make it worse.

You're a blithering idiot, Clete!

:chuckle:

You did the very same thing that you accused me of doing!

No I didn't. You are intentionally trying to misunderstand or else you are trying to intentionally twist what I've said. The problem is Sozo, that everything that we've both said is still right here for everyone to read. It couldn't be simpler to see that you are emotionally out of control and quite irrational.

You may be articulate, but all that does is hide the fact that you are a hypocrite, a fool, and a lying piece of crap.

:rotfl:
My "Sozo, the nut case who thinks things are true because he says them" drawer is get full quick!

You're worse than a homo.

You see what I'm talking about? You've completely lost your mind. Homo's are guilty of something far worse than lying or hypocrisy. They are guilty of a crime which God declares should be punished by death. Are you seriously suggesting that I'm guilty of a capital crime? Please tell me that this is not what you are suggesting! Please tell me that I detroyed your ridiculous position and that you are left with nothing else but to say whatever comes into your head that you think might be the most offensive thing possible. Actually, you don't have to tell me; it's perfectly obvious.

The bottom line is you shot your mouth off about someone else's salvation when you had no right or cause to do so and I called you on it and proved you wrong and you can't live with it. This isn't the first time either. You're a stubborn, thick headed jerk who has condemnation on the tip of his tongue rather than wisdom and understanding. You speak from your emotions and not your mind and you are therefore a clanging symbol that everyone wishes would just stop already!

Ecclesiastes 10:11 A serpent may bite when it is not charmed;
The babbler is no different.
12 The words of a wise man’s mouth are gracious,
But the lips of a fool shall swallow him up;
13 The words of his mouth begin with foolishness,
And the end of his talk is raving madness.​

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Sozo, you are confused. You have been told you are "saved," "born again," and have "eternal life." The truth is that you haven't been saved from the lake of fire yet because you haven't faced being thrown into it at the great white throne yet. You haven't been "born again" yet because you haven't been transformed and changed from corruptible to incorruptible yet. You haven't received "eternal life" yet because you haven't been changed from mortal to immortal yet.

These are all future events, which is what mercyschild is saying.

Are you so afraid of losing your salvation that you have to try to crush everyone else? The gospel message is simple, you too can be saved.

go,

Are you intentionally throwing gasoline on this particular fire or what? You knew before you posted this how Sozo would respond to it. What was the point of this? I don't get it.

And just to be clear. Everything you said, as stated, it quite wrong. The only reason you say such things is because you have no concept at all of the difference between one's position in Christ and one's condition in the flesh. You speak as though there is no distinction or as though one is not identified in Christ and that we should reckon ourselves alive unto God IN Christ Jesus. If your focus were on the Spiritual and not your flesh, you could not say such things. If you ever want to gain victory over the sin in your life, changing this focus is the only way it ever happens.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[elected4ever]

1 John 5:10 ¶He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[kmoney]

Their flesh is not a Christian. I think that's what that really means. I looked at the verse in context (Amplified):

Flesh isn't Christian, the person is.

I'm thinking that when Paul says "those who do such things" he might be referring to the flesh (or the sinful nature) in us all, because later he identifies the flesh as being crucified. So, our flesh can never be saved, because it is stained with sin. But our atoned soul can be saved, because of Jesus' sacrifice.

Yes, it's the flesh, but I don't believe Paul is saying there is some force working independent of you that sins. Paul does contrast spirit and flesh, but it's because there are two desires working in him, not because the "Flesh" causes him to sin and he's powerless to stop it. Your flesh does not become a scapegoat.

I'm still thinking about this... so far it has been logical to me.

To sum up what I'm thinking right now I think you have to say one of two things. Either Christians have a license to sin OR Christians can act out the lusts of the flesh and will not inherit the kingdom of God because of it. And that's because of the actions, not because that person didn't really believe. Now you have been consistently saying that we do indeed have a license to sin so you will simply choose the first option. I, however, do not believe Christ would provide us a license to sin, which is what most Christians would say (I think), but the problem is (in my opinion) is that they would not conclude the 2nd option either. They deny a license to sin even though their theology is just that.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Your insain

:shut:

:rotfl:

:shut:

 

[Clete]

To sum up what I'm thinking right now I think you have to say one of two things. Either Christians have a license to sin OR Christians can act out the lusts of the flesh and will not inherit the kingdom of God because of it. And that's because of the actions, not because that person didn't really believe. Now you have been consistently saying that we do indeed have a license to sin so you will simply choose the first option. I, however, do not believe Christ would provide us a license to sin, which is what most Christians would say (I think), but the problem is (in my opinion) is that they would not conclude the 2nd option either. They deny a license to sin even though their theology is just that.

In what way?

The fact is that Jesus has taken the penalty for our sin if we have trusted in Him for salvation and so I, as a believer in Christ, cannot justly be punished for any evil action I perform because if I, who am identified in Christ, am to be punished myself, then Christ died in vain.

How is that a license for me to do evil? Evil is still evil and it still has consequences that are negative for me as well as for those around me. I have no license to sin. All that is different is that I no longer have fear as a motivation not to commit evil. The only motivation left for me is love, which is vastly more powerful than fear ever thought about being.

Have we been afraid to really believe God? Have some even been afraid to allow others to really believe Him? We must never forget that “God’s ways are not always man’s ways. To some men constant peril is the only spur to action, and many religions and psychologies are dependent on fear to keep their disciples in line. Fear, too, has a place in Christianity, but God has higher and more effective motivations than fear, and one of these is love. Often fear after a while produces only numbness, but love thrives on love. To promise a man the certainty of his destiny may seem, on the human level, like playing with fire; but this leaves God out of the picture. Those who have the deepest appreciation of grace do not continue in sin. Moreover, fear produces the obedience of slaves; love engenders the obedience of sons.” - J. W. Sanderson, Jr.​

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nathon Detroit]

You're worse than a homo.

And did you know Christmas is worse than abortion????

Sozo, your credibility (what little there is left) has just been sliced in half.

 

[kmoney]

In what way?

Define what you mean by license to sin.

The fact is that Jesus has taken the penalty for our sin if we have trusted in Him for salvation and so I, as a believer in Christ, cannot justly be punished for any evil action I perform because if I, who am identified in Christ, am to be punished myself, then Christ died in vain.

I don't necessarily agree. How related do you think Jesus' sacrifice and the Old Testament sacrifices are? For example, not every sin under the Mosaic Law had a sacrifice, does Jesus' sacrifice atone for those sins even though nothing in the Law did?

How is that a license for me to do evil? Evil is still evil and it still has consequences that are negative for me as well as for those around me. I have no license to sin. All that is different is that I no longer have fear as a motivation not to commit evil. The only motivation left for me is love, which is vastly more powerful than fear ever thought about being.

Do you believe Christians can still fulfill the lusts of the flesh? If so, are there any consequences?

 

[Clete]

Define what you mean by license to sin.

Permission to sin without consequence.

I don't necessarily agree. How related do you think Jesus' sacrifice and the Old Testament sacrifices are?

The OT sacrifices were a mere shadow of the real deal.

For example, not every sin under the Mosaic Law had a sacrifice, does Jesus' sacrifice atone for those sins even though nothing in the Law did?

What sins were not covered by the offering made by the High Priest on the day of Atonement?

Do you believe Christians can still fulfill the lusts of the flesh? If so, are there any consequences?

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​

That should answer the first question, the answer to the second depends on the sin, doesn't it? But to give just one example; If I cheat on my wife, I destroy my whole family and undermine the foundation of our entire society, not to mention I end up divorced and alone having to make alimony and child support payments to help raise kids that hardly know me any more and who will grow up calling somebody else daddy.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[kmoney]

Permission to sin without consequence.

When I talk about a license to sin I would use that definition but I'm only talking about consequences from God. Generally that means one thing.

What sins were not covered by the offering made by the High Priest on the day of Atonement?

It does say all their sins. I was thinking more about sins that ended with the execution of the sinner instead of a sacrifice to atone for them. Let's say an Israelite murdered someone and he is summarily executed. Does the High Priest atone for that person on the Day of Atonement?

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​

Why did you quote this?

That should answer the first question, the answer to the second depends on the sin, doesn't it? But to give just one example; If I cheat on my wife, I destroy my whole family and undermine the foundation of our entire society, not to mention I end up divorced and alone having to make alimony and child support payments to help raise kids that hardly know me any more and who will grow up calling somebody else daddy.

Resting in Him,
Clete

That's all true, but I'm not talking about those types of consequences.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Your insain

And your posts show that you go around like a roaring lion seeing who you can devour.

Stop trying to destroy the Christians with weak faith.

 

[elected4ever]

And your posts show that you go around like a roaring lion seeing who you can devour.

Stop trying to destroy the Christians with weak faith.

You do not build faith with lies like you teach.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You do not build faith with lies like you teach.

Here is what Paul said about building faith (edifying the Church):

Romans 14
19Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.​

Paul says that a Christian who believes that Christians CANNOT sin are under an extra burden to keep from offending the Christians who believe that Christians CAN sin.

Paul did not say that Christians should go around trying to convince weaker Christians that they cannot sin. Paul said that Christians should take extra care not to do the things that the weaker Christians think are sins.

If you are following the teachings of Paul, then you should stop trying to convince other Christians that they cannot sin. You should instead be edifying the weaker Christians by modifying your behaviour to their understanding of sin.