ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

[Clete]

3 to 4 days?

Now you're the liar.

You'll get nothing else from me, unless you read it being posted to someone else.

Good riddance, butthead.

When did I ask the question? Was it not 2 days ago? It's late today, I was willing to wait till late tomorrow for your answer. That makes at least three days by my count.

If you want to use this nonsense as an excuse not to answer the question then I can't say that I'll be too surprised. Anything to keep excusing your ridiculously needless abuses toward people you hardly know anything about.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.​

And Sozo, you answered the question before I ever asked it. A point which is confirmed by your flying off the handle over something as tame as my 3 or 4 days comment.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. After looking again, it seems I only asked the question yesterday. So sue me! It sure feels like its been 3 days already! How long does it take to answer such a simple and uncomplicated question anyway!

At any rate, if nothing else, I think we can all put my being a liar and Mercychild's being an unbeliever in the drawer labeled "Sozo is a nut case who thinks things are so because he says them".

 

[mercyschild]

At any rate, if nothing else I think we call put my being a liar and Mercychild's being an unbeliever in the drawer labeled "Sozo is a nutcase who thinks things are so because he says them".

I probably shouldn't laugh :hammer:...but...sorry...:chuckle:

 

[Sozo]

When did I ask the question? Was it not 2 days ago? It's late today, I was willing to wait till late tomorrow for your answer. That makes at least three days by my count.

If you want to use this nonsense as an excuse not to answer the question then I can't say that I'll be too surprised. Anything to keep excusing your ridiculously needless abuses toward people you hardly know anything about.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.​

And Sozo, you answered the question before I ever asked it. A point which is confirmed by your flying off the handle over something as tame as my 3 or 4 days comment.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. After looking again, it seems I only asked the question yesterday. So sue me! It sure feels like its been 3 days already! How long does it take to answer such a simple and uncomplicated question anyway!

At any rate, if nothing else I think we call put my being a liar and Mercychild's being an unbeliever in the drawer labeled "Sozo is a nutcase who thinks things are so because he says them".

You asked me last night after 10pm, in which I was in bed at 11:00

I have been gone since early this morning until about an hour ago.

I do not just put together a great deal of material in that quick of a time frame, and the world does not revolve around your questions.

I still have things I am writing from last week in my one on one with Knight, and my commentary on Romans 8, for tuesday night's fellowship group, plus I have 8 children to attend to, you make it 9.

 

[Poly]

You asked me last night after 10pm, in which I was in bed at 11:00

I have been gone since early this morning until about an hour ago.

I do not just put together a great deal of material in that quick of a time frame, and the world does not revolve around your questions.

I still have things I am writing from last week in my one on one with Knight, and my commentary on Romans 8, for tuesday night's fellowship group, plus I have 8 children to attend to, you make it 9.

Ok, so Clete might have been stretching it to suggest that it has taken you 3 to 4 days. But even if you were just taking 3 to 4 hours, I just don't get it. If somebody came up to you and asked "what must I do to be saved?", it shouldn't take that long to respond. We should already know, like the back of our hand, how we would answer this kind of question.

 

[Clete]

You asked me last night after 10pm, in which I was in bed at 11:00

I have been gone since early this morning until about an hour ago.

I do not just put together a great deal of material in that quick of a time frame, and the world does not revolve around your questions.

I still have things I am writing from last week in my one on one with Knight, and my commentary on Romans 8, for tuesday night's fellowship group, plus I have 8 children to attend to, you make it 9.

Okay, already! I knew I was exaggerating a bit when I wrote it but I really was thinking that this whole conversation started on Saturday and I really was willing to wait without complaint until sometime late tomorrow afternoon. The point is I had no idea how long it would take for you to answer and figured that it would turn out to be 3 or 4 days. So I was off by a full day! Who cares? Sheesh! You can tell by the tone of my post that I wasn't trying to insult you. In fact, you can tell that what I was trying to do was to be exceedingly patient and to keep things on an even keel emotionally. The fact that it proved impossible to do so is only so much more evidence that you are out of control and need to calm down and stop jumping to all sorts of wacko conclusions that have no basis in anything that even remotely resembles rational evidence.

Now, if you are willing to overlook my rather obvious exaggeration then I will promise to make every effort not to make any more of them and would enjoy it very much if we could continue were we left off, in which case I will await a response from you as to how it is that a person must understand who they are in Christ or even that they are identified in Christ or even that they must understand what that even means in order to be saved.

It's up to you.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Sozo]

Ok, so Clete might have been stretching it to suggest that it has taken you 3 to 4 days. But even if you were just taking 3 to 4 hours, I just don't get it. If somebody came up to you and asked "what must I do to be saved?", it shouldn't take that long to respond. We should already know, like the back of our hand, how we would answer this kind of question.

He asked me about mercyschild. She is steeped in legalism. An entire letter was written to the Jews about the essentials, because they were so indoctrinated by the Law. Each person is different. Paul became many things to win souls. It is important to know where a person is at so you can take them where they need to go.

 

[Poly]

H e asked me about mercyschild. She is steeped in legalism. An entire letter was written to the Jews about the essentials, because they were so indoctrinated by the Law. Each person is different. Paul became many things to win souls. It is important to know where a person is at so you can take them where they need to go.

There should be one definitive answer to "What must one do to be saved?" It should be the same answer for all no matter who is steeped in what.

 

[Sozo]

There should be one definitive answer to "What must one do to be saved?" It should be the same answer for all no matter who is steeped in what.

Yes, there is, and I provided that information a few posts back. However, how each person is approached, varies depending on what they currently believe.

As I stated to Clete, just walking up to someone who has never heard of Jesus, or that have no idea they need to be saved, and telling them to believe in Him, is not necessarliy going to mean anything to them. They will probably ask you who Jesus is, why He can save them, why they need to be saved, and what happens when they are saved. Those are important issues.

 

[Sozo]

Asked and answered Clete. Read post 556

Everything in that list is covered in the gospel message.

 

[Clete]

Ultimately it comes down to understanding in our heart that God is right, and we are not, and that we need to be made right by Him, and not because we do right.

All of those things I listed are incorporated into the simplicity of this gospel message.

Here is a way that I posted it in the past...

All men can understand that God is right and we are not, and that we need to be right.

All men can understand that being right is only possible as a gift from God, and that no man can be right by doing right.

All men can understand that receiving the gift of being right can only come if we believe that God sent His Son to pay for our wrongs, and accepting His payment allows us to receive the gift of being right.

All men can understand that any attempt on our part to be right by doing right excludes them from the gift.

All men in any culture or age can understand the simplicity of the gospel.

Okay, I totally missed this post. My apologies.

In response to the following...

Originally Posted by mercyschild

We are awaiting eternal life; we don't yet have it-who hopes for what he already has?

Righteousness is a gift; it is simply our 'right standing with God' because of what Christ has done; we continually work out our salvation through obedience to God's commands in the NT to love God, and love others as ourselves. So, in response to one of your previous comments, yes, in a sense, there are conditions in our working out our faith; we aren't doomed to eternal damnation, but we are to still strive to live out our faith through those two simple commands. With any relationship, our relationship with God is something we work at everyday of our lives.

You said this...

I believe you are religious, mercyschild, but based on what you have just stated, there is no way that you are saved.

Now what I would like is for you to explain to me how "there is NO WAY" that she could be saved!

She said, "Righteousness is a gift; it is simply our 'right standing with God' because of what Christ has done,"

Is that not completely consistent with what you said?

She said, "we continually work out our salvation through obedience to God's commands in the NT to love God, and love others as ourselves. " and while I agree that she is surely confused in her application of this statement, the statement itself remains true or would you deny that we are to love our neighbor as well as love and obey God?

She continued by saying, "So, in response to one of your previous comments, yes, in a sense, there are conditions in our working out our faith; we aren't doomed to eternal damnation, but we are to still strive to live out our faith through those two simple commands." and I agree with you that the word "but" should not be in that sentence that doesn't change the fact that she's right; She will not be doomed to eternal damnation! Now, I'm not sure why she doesn't see that this automatically would mean that she does in fact currently possess eternal life but her confusion doesn't spell her doom any more than would your letting your flesh get the best of you.

And finally she ends with, "With any relationship, our relationship with God is something we work at everyday of our lives." And again, while I would agree that the sense in which she meant this is in error, it doesn't indicate that she is an unbeliever! What it does indicate is that she struggles with her flesh, probably more so than she thinks she ought to have to but again, her confusion doesn't condemn her any more than does yours! Are you really telling me that you understood before you were saved that one gains victory over the flesh by reckoning to be true the fact that we are identified in Christ? NOT EVEN THE APOSTLE PAUL UNDERSTOOD THAT WHEN HE GOT SAVED!

The simple fact is that kmoney is right, you complicate the gospel, although I don't really think that it is your intention to do so.

Salvation is simple. Believe that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh and died to pay the penalty for your sin and call upon Him for the forgiveness of your sins and believe that God raised Him from the dead. That's it! If you believe that, you are saved - period. I don't care if you get every other point of doctrine completely wrong! If you believe that God died to pay the price for your sin debt and that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED. That's the gospel - the rest is window dressing (as important as that window dressing may be.)

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Poly]

In response to the following....

Originally Posted by mercyschild

We are awaiting eternal life; we don't yet have it-who hopes for what he already has?

Righteousness is a gift; it is simply our 'right standing with God' because of what Christ has done; we continually work out our salvation through obedience to God's commands in the NT to love God, and love others as ourselves. So, in response to one of your previous comments, yes, in a sense, there are conditions in our working out our faith; we aren't doomed to eternal damnation, but we are to still strive to live out our faith through those two simple commands. With any relationship, our relationship with God is something we work at everyday of our lives.

You said this...

I believe you are religious, mercyschild, but based on what you have just stated, there is no way that you are saved.

Now what I would like is for you to explain to me how "there is NO WAY" that she could be saved!

She said, "Righteousness is a gift; it is simply our 'right standing with God' because of what Christ has done,"

Is that not completely consistent with what you said?

She said, "we continually work out our salvation through obedience to God's commands in the NT to love God, and love others as ourselves. " and while I agree that she is surely confused in her application of this statement, the statement itself remains true or would you deny that we are to love our neighbor as well as love and obey God?

She continued by saying, "So, in response to one of your previous comments, yes, in a sense, there are conditions in our working out our faith; we aren't doomed to eternal damnation, but we are to still strive to live out our faith through those two simple commands." and I agree with you that the word "but" should not be in that sentence that doesn't change the fact that she's right; She will not be doomed to eternal salvation! Now, I'm not sure why she doesn't see that this automatically would mean that she does in fact currently possess eternal life but her confusion doesn't spell her doom any more than would your letting your flesh get the best of you.

And finally she ends with, "With any relationship, our relationship with God is something we work at everyday of our lives." And again, while I would agree that the sense in which she meant this is in error, it doesn't indicate that she is an unbeliever! What it does indicate is that she struggles with her flesh, probably more so than she thinks she ought to have to but again, her confusion doesn't condemn her any more than does yours! Are you really telling me that you understood before you were saved that one gains victory over the flesh by reckoning to be true the fact that we are identified in Christ? NOT EVEN THE APOSTLE PAUL UNDERSTOOD THAT WHEN HE GOT SAVED!

The simple fact is that kmoney is right, you complicate the gospel, although I don't really think that it is your intention to do so.

Salvation is simple. Believe that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh and died to pay the penalty for your sin and call upon Him for the forgiveness of your sins and believe that God raised Him from the dead. That's it! If you believe that, you are saved - period. I don't care if you get every other point of doctrine completely wrong! If you believe that God died to pay the price for your sin debt and that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED. That's the gospel - the rest is window dressing (as important as that window dressing may be.)

Resting in Him,
Clete

Great post!

POTD :first:

 

[Newman]

The bible does. So why do you think it says that?

There is no way that people that do those things are saved.

 

[Sozo]

This is just plain sad.

You both feel that you must misrepresent me, and what I said, to justify your pride-filled accusations.

I plainly highlighted the part that she stated that disqualifies anyone from being saved. She said...

We are awaiting eternal life; we don't yet have it

I responded by saying...

I believe you are religious, mercyschild, but based on what you have just stated, there is no way that you are saved.

Is that wrong? No, it's not! If she does not have eternal life...NOW, then she is not saved!

That is what the bible says, but you apparently feel it necessary to stroke your massive egos than to be honest about what someone says!

The bible clearly refutes her claim...

"And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life"
…1 John 5:12

"It is the Spirit who gives life " …John 6:63

mercyschild denies that she has the life. Her own words condemn her, not mine.

I tried to tell her, that she cannot say she is saved and deny that she has eternal life.

The bible is telling the truth, not mercyschild, and not either one of you.


Why do you feel that it is necessary for you to lie? Is it to make yoursleves look good, or is there another motive?

Is mercyschild one of your relatives? Is she a "Gold" subscriber?

What posessess you to alienate the gospel from someone who preaches a false one?

Salvation is simple. Believe that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh and died to pay the penalty for your sin and call upon Him for the forgiveness of your sins and believe that God raised Him from the dead.

Okay...

What is salvation? hmmm? Who is Jesus? What is sin? Why did this Jesus pay for it? Why do I need forgiveness? Why was He raised from the dead?

Your little box is no bigger than that of a Calvinist's.

 

[kmoney]

There is no way that people that do those things are saved.

See, a lot of people say that, but I'm getting to the point where I think it's a copout. "Oh, if that person really believed then they wouldn't do those things. They aren't real Christians."

 

[Sozo]

See, a lot of people say that, but I'm getting to the point where I think it's a copout. "Oh, if that person really believed then they wouldn't do those things. They aren't real Christians."

I agree with you kmoney, in fact, Christians often do them far more than some non-Christians

 

[Nathon Detroit]

When I read threads like this I realize how far my dogma has ran away.

 

[Sozo]

:dog:

 

[Newman]

See, a lot of people say that, but I'm getting to the point where I think it's a copout. "Oh, if that person really believed then they wouldn't do those things. They aren't real Christians."

Their flesh is not a Christian. I think that's what that really means. I looked at the verse in context (Amplified):

Galatians 5:16But I say, walk and live [habitually] in the [Holy] Spirit [responsive to and controlled and guided by the Spirit]; then you will certainly not gratify the cravings and desires of the flesh (of human nature without God).

17For the desires of the flesh are opposed to the [Holy] Spirit, and the [desires of the] Spirit are opposed to the flesh (godless human nature); for these are antagonistic to each other [continually withstanding and in conflict with each other], so that you are not free but are prevented from doing what you desire to do.

18But if you are guided (led) by the [Holy] Spirit, you are not subject to the Law.

19Now the doings (practices) of the flesh are clear (obvious): they are immorality, impurity, indecency,

20Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies),

21Envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,

23Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [[f]that can bring a charge].

24And those who belong to Christ Jesus (the Messiah) have crucified the flesh (the godless human nature) with its passions and appetites and desires.

25If we live by the [Holy] Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. [If by the Holy Spirit [g]we have our life in God, let us go forward [h]walking in line, our conduct controlled by the Spirit.]

I'm thinking that when Paul says "those who do such things" he might be referring to the flesh (or the sinful nature) in us all, because later he identifies the flesh as being crucified. So, our flesh can never be saved, because it is stained with sin. But our atoned soul can be saved, because of Jesus' sacrifice.

I'm still thinking about this... so far it has been logical to me.

EDIT: oh yeah, and, I wholeheartedly agree that many Christians do use copouts. In fact, I know people that use this same scripture as a copout, just as you described. I don't really (for sure) know exactly what Paul meant in these statements, but I can make a pretty good, well-thought-out guess. And I hope I'm not making a copout of a copout through all of this, either. (how funny would that be)

 

[Poly]

This is just plain sad.

You both feel that you must misrepresent me, and what I said, to justify your pride-filled accusations.

I plainly highlighted the part that she stated that disqualifies anyone from being saved. She said...

we don't yet have it

I responded by saying...

I believe you are religious, mercyschild, but based on what you have just stated, there is no way that you are saved.

Is that wrong? No, it's not! If she does not have eternal life...NOW, then she is not saved!

That is what the bible says, but you apparently feel it necessary to stroke your massive egos than to be honest about what someone says!

I find it interesting that in post 519 where you quote mercyschild (post 518) you quote everything except what she's talking about when she refers to what it is we don't have yet; perfected bodies. Here's the whole thing with the part you left out in bold.

We are awaiting eternal life; we don't yet have it-who hopes for what he already has? Our earthly bodies must still die; these are temporary vessals, not the eternal ones...

Righteousness is a gift; it is simply our 'right standing with God' because of what Christ has done; we continually work out our salvation through obedience to God's commands in the NT to love God, and love others as ourselves. So, in response to one of your previous comments, yes, in a sense, there are conditions in our working out our faith; we aren't doomed to eternal damnation, but we are to still strive to live out our faith through those two simple commands. With any relationship, our relationship with God is something we work at everyday of our lives.

Like I said, earlier, Sozo, I don't want to continue 'arguing' over something we simply don't agree fully on; I enjoy your input on alot of the other threads...and I enjoy this site...

It's easier to see what she's focusing on, referring to what we are awaiting when the omitted part is put back in her quote. While I don't agree with everything in her post, it's not so strange that one would make the comment that we are awaiting eternal life, referring to having to endure the bodies we now have which are not eternal. And she asks a good question. Who hopes for what he already has? She's pretty much asking a question that Paul asks as well.

Romans 8:23-25
"Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance."

Why do you feel that it is necessary for you to lie? Is it to make yoursleves look good, or is there another motive?

I have not lied, Sozo. Even if you are totally right and I am totally wrong, I...have....NOT.... lied. I state everything I'm saying with a pure and clear conscience, not looking to deceive or misconstrue anything or misrepresent anyone.

Calling somebody a liar isn't something one should just let roll off their tongue, (type with their fingers) whenever they feel like it, not caring to really take this kind of accusation seriously by making sure that what you're claiming of somebody is true. Maybe it's not a big deal to you or to some but I don't appreciate being called a liar when I'm not.

Is mercyschild one of your relatives? Is she a "Gold" subscriber?

I barely know her except her testimony and profession of Christ which lines up with scripture. You barely know her as well but because she doesn't agree with you, you come across as a big bully. It's just not right.

I find it sad that she stated to you that she wanted things to be cool between you and her because she enjoys your imput yet it seems you'd rather remain uncool, claiming that she's not a Christian and that she's a fraud and a liar.

 

[Clete]

This is just plain sad.

You both feel that you must misrepresent me, and what I said, to justify your pride-filled accusations.

I've misrepresented nothing and you know it, Sozo. Now who's lying?
I quoted your own words for crying out loud! :bang:

I plainly highlighted the part that she stated that disqualifies anyone from being saved. She said...

We are awaiting eternal life; we don't yet have it

I responded by saying...

I believe you are religious, mercyschild, but based on what you have just stated, there is no way that you are saved.

Is that wrong? No, it's not! If she does not have eternal life...NOW, then she is not saved!

First of all a primary point of my post was to point out that you focus on entirely the wrong thing, which is why I intentionally left out your artificially added emphasis that you read into her comments.

Secondly YES it's wrong! If she believes that God became a man and died to pay her sin debt and that God raised Him from the dead then I don't care what she says or doesn't say, she will be saved. It makes no difference how confused she is about whatever other side issue you want to make a bigger deal out of than is called for.

That is what the bible says, but you apparently feel it necessary to stroke your massive egos than to be honest about what someone says!

Get over yourself Sozo. You've gone so far off the deep end so many times that no one cares any longer what you think is honest. You've spent every last dime of intellectual clout you ever had and then some.

The bible clearly refutes her claim...

SO WHAT? That doesn't mean she isn't saved! Sure it means she's mistaken on a particular detail but the Bible DOES NOT teach that in order to become saved one must understand that believers have eternal life this side of Heaven.

"And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life"
…1 John 5:12

"It is the Spirit who gives life " …John 6:63

mercyschild denies that she has the life. Her own words condemn her, not mine.

YOU ARE AN IDIOT SOZO!!!!

All you've proven is that the Bible teaches that we have eternal life as believers. You've not proven that believing that particular detail of the truth is necessary for salvation. Do you understand the difference?

I tried to tell her, that she cannot say she is saved and deny that she has eternal life.

And so what? Because she didn't receive the truth from Sozo, she must be damned! Is that it? Who the crap do you think you are?

The bible is telling the truth, not mercyschild, and not either one of you.

OH! So now Poly and I must be going to Hell too! I mean after all, we might have a point or two of disagreement with the almighty authority on all things Biblical and theological - the great and all knowing Sozo!

Why do you feel that it is necessary for you to lie? Is it to make yoursleves look good, or is there another motive?

Is mercyschild one of your relatives? Is she a "Gold" subscriber?

What posessess you to alienate the gospel from someone who preaches a false one?

You've lost your mind Sozo. Don't you have any other tactic? Why always start ranting about how everyone who backs you into a corner is a liar? You sound silly. You are silly.

Okay...

What is salvation? hmmm? Who is Jesus? What is sin? Why did this Jesus pay for it? Why do I need forgiveness? Why was He raised from the dead?

Your little box is no bigger than that of a Calvinist's.

Great questions all! None of which need to be fully understood in order to be saved. NONE of them. The Bible very simply does not teach that one needs a complete and comprehensive theology in order to be saved. If one simply believes that Jesus is God and that He died tp pay the sin debt you owe and that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. You don't have to understand why or how or whatever. It's super duper easy and plain enough for a child to understand.

Does Mercychild believe that Jesus is God?
Does Mercychild believe that Jesus died to pay the sin debt that she owes?
Does Mercychild believe that God raised Jesus from the dead?

If the answer to all three of those questions is "YES" then I don't care what you think nor do I care what else she says or does. The Bible says she's saved and so she is - period. The Bible also happens to teach that she has been given the gift of eternal life but whether she understands that or not is a separate issue, whether you think it is or not.

Resting in Him,
Clete